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Forum: The Other Side
Thread (Discussion): SO Treatment - silver
Message 137979
Would it work for heterosexuals?
Posted by assumption18
on Jul 26, 2004 08:14 PM | Also by assumption18
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: 21 - 29,
State: District of Columbia,
Country: United States |
I'd like to pose a question to all here.
Especially DP1, and such who say that Therapy is the only option to a "cure".
Would the therapy that is in place to "cure" pedophiles from being attracted to children, work on heterosexuals, say to deter them from being attracted to women, or acting out?
If not, then surely you cannot expect the same therapy to work on pedophiles either.
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Message 137983 (In Reply to Message 137979)
Posted by dp1
on Jul 26, 2004 09:02 PM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
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State: Florida,
Country: United States |
You won't find anyone saying there's a cure. There never was, still isn't and I'm sure in my lifetime I won't see a cure. The best therapy can do for a pedophile or sex offender is help control the problem to reduce any future abuse. That's all.
Heterosexuals that rape go to the same therapy groups where I'm from and learn the same techniques.
Studies have shown that people reoffend less after completing therapy then their counterparts that never went through therapy. It is not a cure and no one claims to stamp out abuse altogether. It simply reduces the risks of reoffending.
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Message 137986 (In Reply to Message 137983)
but
Posted by assumption18
on Jul 26, 2004 10:36 PM | Also by assumption18
| Gender: Male,
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State: District of Columbia,
Country: United States |
there is a difference between force and non-force... adult rape = force against will
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Message 137994 (In Reply to Message 137986)
Posted by dp1
on Jul 26, 2004 11:35 PM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
There's differences among like crimes also. Most SO programs I've seen focus on the commonalities among the sex offenses in general which they develop into a formalized program. SO treatment is not like individual therapy, at least the programs I've dealt with. They have specific steps of progress that all must achieve, homework asignments, etc. What I like about it is it's tough, but general enough for all to benefit from and individual enough on certain steps to make it meaningful.
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Message 138002 (In Reply to Message 137994)
therapy in general
Posted by brennus
on Jul 27, 2004 01:39 AM | Also by brennus
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Wisconsin,
Country: United States |
I'm not exactly sure if this is on topic, but I've heard of counseling ordered in non-SO related crimes (like assault). Does court ordered counseling involve specific service providers when non SO related? Also, is anger management based on accountability and confrontation like SO treatment, or something else?
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Message 138007 (In Reply to Message 138002)
Brennus
Posted by dp1
on Jul 27, 2004 03:34 AM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
We have three levels of anger management in my area. Basically, when someone is court ordered they are ordered to get the evaluation and any followup therapy if recommended. The therapist evaluates the client and scores them 1, 2 or 3. Level 3 is the most intensive and similar to what SO treatment would be. Levels 1 and 2 are basically educationally based not therapy based like 3 is. Domestic violence is set up the same, but is separate from anger management and SO TX.
As far as SO TX, it's all basically the same which is self paced with the exception of the fast track program. Fast track is for young offenders with young victims less than 5 years difference in age.
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Message 138049 (In Reply to Message 137979)
back to the point
Posted by assumption18
on Jul 27, 2004 07:03 PM | Also by assumption18
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: District of Columbia,
Country: United States |
....
would this therapy work to stop heterosexuals having thoughts about women, and stop heterosexuals from engaging in sexual relations with women?
If so, then heterosexuality is also a disease, and should be treated such. If not, then pedosexuality is not a disease.
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Message 138056 (In Reply to Message 138049)
Posted by brennus
on Jul 27, 2004 09:11 PM | Also by brennus
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Wisconsin,
Country: United States |
I have heard of therapists who try and turn gays straight, and the same techniques which are used by some SO therapists to try and treat pedophiles have been used in the past to try and turn gays straight. However, there's only one therapist that I've heard of who is specifically trying to turn formerly straight folks gay.
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Message 138057 (In Reply to Message 137983)
What If?
Posted by JakeLF
on Jul 27, 2004 09:25 PM | Also by JakeLF
| Gender: N/A,
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State: N/A,
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Okay first off I am not saying that this would end up being me, I am just saying in general. What if someone went through therapy and was very succesful and was a role model to other pedophiles and sex offenders that you could tell that he would never harm a child sexually again. He takes the medication for several years and then after something like 10 or 15 years of not offending or even having the thoughts, some how he is put in a siruation where he was with a kid and he ended up molesting that child and gets drug back into that pattern again when he starts to molest again.
First, should they sentence him to life in prison for what he did to that child?
Second, do they try and go back and see what made him molest and what caused him to relapse?
Or do you think that he hid it for that long so people would get off his back and that they would say that he can be trusted around children and so he hid it and when the chance he came he re-offended.
I am not sure how well medication works and I am not making excuses for anyone, but I know that pedophiles and child molesters like me have a reputation for not being able to be treated because of what we have done. Yes there are some out there that think pedophiles can get over there desires and attractions if they have the drive and motivation to do so, but what if they do and years and years from now re-offend, what was the cause? Just basically saying hypathetically and what if?
Sorry I am just rambling on and I am pretty sure that this probably doesn't even make sense
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Message 138059 (In Reply to Message 138057)
Posted by brennus
on Jul 27, 2004 10:58 PM | Also by brennus
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Wisconsin,
Country: United States |
First, should they sentence him to life in prison for what he did to that child? I'm not sure if it should be life, but if such an occurence happens, he should be sentenced to close to the maximum allowed.
Second, do they try and go back and see what made him molest and what caused him to relapse?
I don't think they'll care, what will matter is he molested a kid, and should be punished to the full extent of the law. They'll probably tweak the program, but not make too many changes.
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Message 138067 (In Reply to Message 138057)
Your not cured......
Posted by Silverthorne
on Jul 28, 2004 03:39 AM | Also by Silverthorne
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Arizona,
Country: United States |
"but I know that pedophiles and child molesters like me have a reputation for not being able to be treated because of what we have done. Yes there are some out there that think pedophiles can get over there desires and attractions if they have the drive and motivation to do so, "
It isn't that you get over your desires. You never do. You'll always be attracted to kids. What you do though is develop coping strategies to deal with the stress children cause.
Look at myself. Now for the most part (probably 98% of the time) when I see a boy Im attracted to I can say "oh he's cute" and move on. I don't dwell on it. I don't beat myself up for thinking that.
Its alot like being heterosexual (I assume) when you see a "hot chick" and think "what a babe". I mean you don't instantly think of raping her. You just acknowledge to yourself she is good looking and move on.
So you learn to live with being attracted to kids. You learn to avoid situations where you might be exposed to them. Does this eliminate all cases? No of course not. But most of them. Also being in therapy you can understand what to do if you are exposed to stress / children. Thats the key.
Silverthorne
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Message 138068 (In Reply to Message 138049)
Posted by Silverthorne
on Jul 28, 2004 03:47 AM | Also by Silverthorne
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Arizona,
Country: United States |
"If so, then heterosexuality is also a disease, and should be treated such. If not, then pedosexuality is not a disease."
Actually its a mental disorder. Why? Because children are NOT equals to adults. Thus you can't assign adult emotions, feelings, judgement making ability or anything else to a child. They don't have the life experiences to make an adult decision on sex with adults.
Also if you get some kind of psychological fix off a child (even without sex) your abusing them because your going into the relationship (if there is such a thing) with an ENTIRELY different agenda then they are. I mean think about it. If you told the kids parents "Im attracted to your daughter. I'd never have sex with her but cuddling, massaging and being with her makes me complete as a man. " do you honestly think they'd let you within a 100 miles of the kids? NO!!!
So you lie, cheat, make up lines and deceive. You dont tell the parents of your victims what your really there for. That you "need" thier kid to get a fix. Its like a drug or something. If it wasn't you wouldn't be so adament about defending it.
Kids are NOT equals to adults on ANY scale. Thus any relationship you could hope to have with them is inherently UNEQUAL and this UNETHICAL. I mean its like taking advantage of something.
Kids like to please adults. Thus you have the upper hand.
Silverthorne
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Message 138070 (In Reply to Message 138056)
Posted by Silverthorne
on Jul 28, 2004 03:52 AM | Also by Silverthorne
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Arizona,
Country: United States |
"I have heard of therapists who try and turn gays straight, and the same techniques which are used by some SO therapists to try and treat pedophiles have been used in the past to try and turn gays straight. However, there's only one therapist that I've heard of who is specifically trying to turn formerly straight folks gay."
Ive actually done quite a bit of reading into these "treatments" for gay people. What they involve are prayer, prayer and more prayer. Basically its a religious indoctrination. Even we Mormons have one (called Evergreen).
None of them really claim to "convert" you what they do is teach you to be celebate. Using God as a guilt trip they shame you into believing homosexual sex is a sin and thus you must remain celebate. Even looking at some more liberal churches in America that ordain gay priests and ministers. They may be gay but they must be celebate (although that is changing).
So it isn' t a cure at all. Why? Probably because its hardwired and they're born gay. My feeling at least.
Silverthorne
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Message 138084 (In Reply to Message 138057)
Jake
Posted by fallenone
on Jul 28, 2004 05:19 PM | Also by fallenone
| Gender: N/A,
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State: Ohio,
Country: United States |
You have to understand one thing and that is that those of us who have these inclinations that are illicit do not fully get away from them but we can overcome them to the point to where it is no longer a major part of our lives. Let me explain further. with me it's not so much I like a certain age of lady I like particular features. Some teenagers have these features, though I don't actively pursue these people. here's a concept for you-- not maintaining even the appearance of sin. I cannot control the envorinment around me but I can control my participation in it. I see a very beautiful but obviously underage girl at the mall. I may give her a passing glance. What I do after that determines my destiny. Someone can act on their inclinations or not. I am disciplined-- I don't try to hit on her, I just go on about my business. The more you discipline yourself the easier it gets. When people relapse they hyave let their guard down. they think "Oh I can handle doing this now when they can't." Part of being "cured" means to not let your guard down. I described an incident with a lady friend of mine in another post. I'm not attracted to boys or toddlers at all, but I did not do anything that could even remotely be wrongly perceived. That is the kind of attitude you should develop. And as long as you constantly see yourself as someone who cannot overcome, you're treading dangerous waters. If you see yourself as uncontrollable then eventually you will behave that way. Each person is responsible for his OWN behavoirs and actions. But I don't believe everything about us is etched in stone forever. We can change so long as we don't turn back to those things that led us astray. I just got out of my worst depression in 5 years, yet I did not have the desire to "relapse."
F1
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Message 138093 (In Reply to Message 138070)
Posted by momwants2help
on Jul 28, 2004 09:25 PM | Also by momwants2help
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Missouri,
Country: United States |
Ive actually done quite a bit of reading into these "treatments" for gay people. What they involve are prayer, prayer and more prayer. Basically its a religious indoctrination.
None of them really claim to "convert" you what they do is teach you to be celebate. Using God as a guilt trip they shame you into believing homosexual sex is a sin and thus you must remain celebate.
So it isn' t a cure at all. Why? Probably because its hardwired and they're born gay. My feeling at least.
http://exodus.to/default2.asp
Exodus utilizes prayer, I am sure, but it also has a lot of really practical resources. The founder was a homosexual, so he knows where he is coming from. Will you do me the favor of at least looking it over before you lump it in the group of "religious indoctrination"?
I am interested in knowing with more clarity what you mean by "hard wired". Are you saying that it is genetic, something you are born inclined to do and therefore it cannot be wrong, or a sin?
My take on it is that among boys who are sexualized at a young age whether it be through pornography depicting males together or sexual abuse by a male, they are much more likely to develop a homosexual lifestyle. Do you disagree with this? If it's true, then "hard wired" would mean their brain/body learned to respond sexually to this kind of stimulation because it was their first sexual experience. Thoughts??
Please know that I am not trying to be hostile or offensive in any way,
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Message 138094 (In Reply to Message 138068)
Posted by Actavail
on Jul 28, 2004 09:27 PM | Also by Actavail
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United Kingdom |
Actually its a mental disorder. Why? Because children are NOT equals to adults. Thus you can't assign adult emotions, feelings, judgement making ability or anything else to a child. They don't have the life experiences to make an adult decision on sex with adults.
I don't see how any of these 'whys' (which I agree with) have anything to say about pedophilia being a 'mental' disorder.
I understand part of your motivation, which is to encourage paedophiles to seek psychological help so that they do not act out on a kid. But just because 'therapy' can help that does not mean that paedophilia (or any other desire/craving/behaviour/orientation) is a 'disorder'. It can be a big problem, if it conflicts with your ability to live safely or morally in society, and as such it is perfectly legitimate that medical help be made available . I think there are dangers in classifying 'differences' as 'disorders' - that's what happened in the good old USSR if you disagreed with communism - they said you were nuts.
There are plenty of ways that folks can get help from a doctor when they are not 'ill' e.g. pregnancy , smoking.
You mentioned, I think in a different thread, the 'therapies' for homosexuality and I thought you might be interested in these articles from the British Medical Journal about the days when doctors and society thought it legitimate to 'treat' this illness' and not just the religious groups.
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/328/7437/427?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=1&title=homosexuality&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1091044953309_12823&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=10&sortspec=relevance&fdate=1/1/2004&resourcetype=1,2,3,4
Also if you get some kind of psychological fix off a child (even without sex) your abusing them because your going into the relationship (if there is such a thing) with an ENTIRELY different agenda then they are. But is that not true of anyone who 'likes kids' - they get a psychological fix from working/playing with them. Some, like sports coaches, no doubt get an even more selfish fix from just being the boss of a winning team.
If the only or main motivation for someone is to exploit a child (physically/ emotionally or sexually) that is clearly wrong but I 'm not so sure that having a particular sexual attraction necessarily means that it is a dominant motivator and cannot be suppressed. I used to deal with a lot of adult female clients in an environment where they could be emotionally vulnerable and I held a degree of power. There were certainly some very attractive women and I was sometimes aware of sexual attraction but I had a job to do and an understanding that to act on that attraction would be wrong for all the reasons you gave in your post. It was never more than a pleasant feeling of being in the presence of an attractive human being. I would rather acknowledge that attraction and put it in context , rather than try to artificially suppress/deny it.
If you told the kids parents "Im attracted to your daughter. I'd never have sex with her but cuddling, massaging and being with her makes me complete as a man. " do you honestly think they'd let you within a 100 miles of the kids? NO!!!
But hey that's true of almost any situation. Try this (and I appreciate that it does not QUITE match your own circumstances, Silver!):
If you told your best buddy "I'm attracted to your wife. I'd never have sex with her but just being around her makes me complete as a man. " do you honestly think he''d let you within a 100 miles of his missus? NO!!!
We all deal with hidden passions, some strong, some transient. And we all tell lies and suppress our true desires (and certainly our fantasies).
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Message 138098 (In Reply to Message 138094)
Posted by dp1
on Jul 28, 2004 10:38 PM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
If you told your best buddy "I'm attracted to your wife. I'd never have sex with her but just being around her makes me complete as a man. " do you honestly think he''d let you within a 100 miles of his missus? NO!!!
We all deal with hidden passions, some strong, some transient. And we all tell lies and suppress our true desires (and certainly our fantasies).
I hope you aren't comparing the risk of a grown man being attracted to an adult woman as opposed to the risk of a pedophile being attracted to a child? If so, that's surely a poor example. That would be similar to me comparing the risk of smoking cigarettes to smoking crack. Big difference both legally, morally, and a significant difference with victim impact.
I'm not trying to poke fun, but with my sick sense of humor, I find it hilarious reading all the rationalizations pedophiles use. To think a pedo's attraction to children is even remotely comparable to a heterosexual's is absolutely ridiculous.
Do pedophiles all go to the same school? I can't get over how similar the pedo rhetoric is. (Yawn)
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Message 138104 (In Reply to Message 138098)
Nothing in common with heterosexuals and normal people
Posted by JakeLF
on Jul 28, 2004 11:39 PM | Also by JakeLF
| Gender: N/A,
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Country: United States |
Yeah< i do not think that pedophiles or SO's can be compared in any way to heterosexuals and normal people that do not desire children. We are nothing like regular people in society and to try and justify that we are the same as normal society is just foolish, saying that we are attracted to children in the same way that an adult man is attracted to a adult women that is just plain old dumb thinking. I have no skills to relate well with adults so I can't compare anything from being a pedophile to anything about an adult male and there attraction to other adults. It a trait that I seem not to have most of the time or most of my life. Comparing the truth does not make any sense. There is nothing the same.
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Message 138105 (In Reply to Message 137979)
Posted by orolan
on Jul 28, 2004 11:47 PM | Also by orolan
| Gender: Male,
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Country: United States |
Some topics around this place! Geeez!
There is no "cure" for pedophilia. It is a part of the person that, while controllable, can't be removed. In that respect, it is identical to heterosexuality, homosexuality and bisexuality. The only thing I find "odd" about pedosexuality(age attraction aside) is that it is seen as "abnormal" or "deviant" because one party is generally at least 6 years older than the other. And yet a young man in his 20's whose "age of attraction" is say 45-50 is not seen to be abnormal or deviant. He just "likes older women". I won't get into law, because the law can't make you "well" or "sick" or change what happens in your mind. All it does is control how OTHERS view what happens in your mind.
As for treatment for sex offenders, it is quite effective in doing what it is supposed to do. In my case, it taught me what it was that I did wrong, why it was wrong, and how to avoid it in the future. It didn't "cure" me, because there was nothing to cure. I wasn't sick, and I'm not a pedophile. And many, many other sex offenders in treatment aren't pedophiles, either. Most made a bad judgement call at worst. I'm not "minimizing" anything they did, but that's the way it is. Lousy judgement and raging hormones cause far more sex offenses than pedophilia does.
With that in mind, the treatment sex offenders go through would have no effect on a heterosexual and turn them into a celibate monk, a homosexual, or anything else. But it WOULD be effective, properly adjusted, to treat a heterosexual who had a bondage fetish or a superiority complex that brought out a violent streak during sex, for example.
IMHO
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Message 138107 (In Reply to Message 138098)
Posted by Actavail
on Jul 28, 2004 11:54 PM | Also by Actavail
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United Kingdom |
Do pedophiles all go to the same school? I can't get over how similar the pedo rhetoric is. (Yawn)
Since I am not a pedophile and have not the slightest interest in having sex with a minor, I have not been on that particular course but I am prepared to think a bit more carefully about a bunch of men who are, in my estimation being unfairly labelled by dozy ('yawn') . blinkered, and I'm afraid to say (at times) frankly rude people. Please drop the (yawn) stuff, dp1 and stick to grown-up language or if you are tired or bored have a snooze.
I hope you aren't comparing the risk of a grown man being attracted to an adult woman as opposed to the risk of a pedophile being attracted to a child?
No, I agree, the risk to the child of a pedophile acting out is much greater, the need for a paedophile to maintain a standard of sexual behaviour is much, much higher. On that basis, you are quite correct, the average risk of pedophilic attractions has to be higher. But that is the key phrase 'on average'.
I am simply arguing against the simplistic idea that someone who has paedophilic thoughts is somehow otherwise compelled to act them out. In other words, that pedophilia (a sexual attraction to children) alos MUST be accompanied by a deficiency in sexual self-control and some blinding moral defecit that prevents that person seeing the consequences of acting out. I understand, the world only sees and knows of these men who do act out
I appreciate that you have to deal with that reality every day but I do not understand why you cannot except that there may be others who certainly poesses the attraction but have as much or more self-control than your average man and who have a perfectly well-developed sense of morality (or parental responsibility) that would prevent them ever from acting out.
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Message 138108 (In Reply to Message 138105)
Observation
Posted by JakeLF
on Jul 28, 2004 11:57 PM | Also by JakeLF
| Gender: N/A,
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Country: United States |
Question?
I have a small question and it has to do with age gaps of adults when they are married or meet. There are many people that have relationships where there age difference can range from 10 years to sometimes the most remote being 30 years. I know that they are adults and that is when they met and that they both understand sexuality and what they want.
Though if you think about it, if they have such a gap in age, when one of them was 20 and there is a 20 year age difference, the other one wasnt even born yet. People in society say that relationships between adults and children are not normal and sick, but yet as adults if there is a age difference its no big deal. I am not justifying my acts or trying to feel sorry for myself. I am just saying that everything in society is always based on age and what is good for age.
Like someone that is not 18 can't vote because there is a law saying that you cant vite. So that is basically dumb because it seems like there are alot of very smart young teenagers and kids out there that seem to know more about politics and life than some adults but yet they can't give there input until there 18, so that could be 2 terms down the road when they can actually vote. I just think that is a very dumb law that should be changed, just my opinion.
I will stick heavily on other age restrictions like drinking, smoking and all those other ones because I think that you should be well aware of those as an adult. Drinking done carelessly can kill you, smoking too much can kill you and I don't want to see a kid dying from either of those.
I just see society being hung up on the age barrier so much, I am not saying there should be a change, I am just stating an observation of mine. Its all about age in this world of ours.
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Message 138110 (In Reply to Message 138098)
Posted by orolan
on Jul 29, 2004 12:12 AM | Also by orolan
| Gender: Male,
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Country: United States |
If so, that's surely a poor example.
Since "risk" is defined as "the possibility of suffering harm or loss", are you saying that when comparing the effects of a pedosexual acting out on his attraction to a child by molesting her and an adult heterosexual male who rapes the adult woman he is attracted to, there is NO comparing the damage done?
The cigarette/crack analogy doesn't fly, because the "offender" and "victim" are the same person. Self-inflicted "harm" is nowhere near as severe as inflicting that harm on another.
To think a pedo's attraction to children is even remotely comparable to a heterosexual's is absolutely ridiculous.
Care to explain that from a biological standpoint? Never mind legality or morality, as they change with the tide. We're talking about something these people were born with.
Sex offending in many cases may be a "learned behavior". Pedophilia is not. Pedophiles can't help what they are, but they can learn to control their desires in order to conform to society. Heterosexuals have already done so, since it is believed that Stone-Age people had sex much like animals, ie when they wanted to, where they wanted to, with whoever they wanted to, and as often as they wanted to.
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Message 138111 (In Reply to Message 138104)
Posted by Actavail
on Jul 29, 2004 12:18 AM | Also by Actavail
| Gender: Male,
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Country: United Kingdom |
Jake,
With respect all that you say me be true, but just because it applies to you, does not mean that it applies to everyone who is attracted to children. The only pedophiles that the world knows about are those like yourself who have issues about relating to adults and difficulties in controlling yourself sexually. There are plenty of heterosexuals who have difficulties relating to adults and sexual control issues but no-one calls them simply 'heterosexual''. They 'heterosexuals with sexual control issues'.
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Message 138118 (In Reply to Message 138108)
Posted by steve
on Jul 29, 2004 01:30 AM | Also by steve
| Gender: Male,
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State: Virginia,
Country: United States |
Though if you think about it, if they have such a gap in age, when one of them was 20 and there is a 20 year age difference, the other one wasnt even born yet. People in society say that relationships between adults and children are not normal and sick, but yet as adults if there is a age difference its no big deal.
I wouldn't say society in the U.S. doesn't question and disapprove of such relationships, but I agree that society doesn't consider a 40 year old man with a 25 year old woman to be equivalent to a 20 year old man with a 14 year old girl (ages selected just for purpose of having examples to discuss). I'd say most people I know would question a 40 year old friend, coworker, relative or acquaintance in a relationship with a 25 year old woman just because on average one would expect disparity in attitudes, desires, lifestyles and maturity between them and many would wonder what motivated either to enter the relationship. Those same differences could apply to the 20 year old and 14 year old, but in addition it's likely that there would be a much wider gap in maturity, power, education, economic means (which affects dependency on the other person, mobility, etc.), power and mobility (ability to leave the relationship and get away from the other person). Nevermind that in the eyes of the law the 20 year old is a legal adult with additional rights and privileges not granted to the 14 year old. Again, I'm just generalizing, but I think the risk to the 14 year old is much greater than that to the 25 year old and American society evaluates the two example relationships accordingly.
Like someone that is not 18 can't vote because there is a law saying that you cant vite. So that is basically dumb because it seems like there are alot of very smart young teenagers and kids out there...
Oh, I agree that there are children much younger than 18 who are more qualified to vote than some adults in their 30s and older. But I'm comfortable with an arbitrary age-based restriction for voting for a number of reasons I won't get into here and I am fine with 18 being that arbitrary age. If there was a better way to determine fitness to vote that would be Constitutional, not give the perception of other forms of descrimination and didn't take a lot more time, money and people to manage I'd consider it. In cae you aren't aware, there have been movements in some parts of the U.S. to give those as young as 15 the right to vote in some or all elections. I still can't get over the irony of the California movement to give those under 18 fractional votes based on their age - a la slaves of generations past having their votes not count as full votes.
I just think that is a very dumb law that should be changed, just my opinion.
Maybe a return to only allowing white, male, landowners? (sarcasm)
I just see society being hung up on the age barrier so much, I am not saying there should be a change, I am just stating an observation of mine. Its all about age in this world of ours.
If you have other ideas for how to evaluate and manage readiness to vote, have sexual contact with others, drive, drink, etc. I'm all ears. But think it through first. I will keep an open-mind and spend time considering an idea and participating in constructive discussion, but it better address cost, manpower requirements and direct and indirect ramifications. This invitation is open to all - this really is a topic that would be good to explore in depth in another thread at some point.
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Message 138127 (In Reply to Message 138107)
Actavail
Posted by dp1
on Jul 29, 2004 06:47 AM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
Since you are not a pedophile you can't give us testimonial but how about some second hand information? How many people do you know personally who have been diagnosed as a pedophile and have never molested a child? How long have you known them and how do you know for sure they never molested? Just curious. The way you talk it sounds like you have thousands of personal friends that you have known for years and can swear they never molested a child.
Most psychologists won't even diagnose someone with pedophilia until they have numerous victims. Silverthorne is a very rare case with an extreme compulsion who came very very close himself to raping a young boy.
I suspect when you speak of pedophiles you really mean people with an attraction to children not diagnosed pedophiles. Big difference buddy.
You are prepared to say that pedophiles are unfairly labeled based on what percentage of poor poor pedos that you know for a fact never molested a chid?
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Message 138129 (In Reply to Message 138110)
Orolan
Posted by dp1
on Jul 29, 2004 07:17 AM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
Sex offending in many cases may be a "learned behavior". Pedophilia is not. Pedophiles can't help what they are, but they can learn to control their desires in order to conform to society.
There's no proof of that Orolan. There are days I think it's learned and there are days I think it's actually biological. I'm about 50/50 on this issue. Even on half the days I think they are born that way they could still learn to have healthy relationships with adults.
See what a lot of people forget is that when you really get to know most pedophiles it's not just about them liking children it's their entire personality. Was it Activail that posted about the guy in shorts dressing like a kid? I don't know about shorts since I wear them 12 months a year, but I can say for sure that pedos are very child like in a lot of ways. They seem emotionally about 12 years old at best. Their hobbies and interests are similar to high school boys. On and on. When I see that day in and day out I just shake my head and tell myself it's a choice they made - the choice being not to grow up. Do you know what I mean?
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Message 138132 (In Reply to Message 138129)
Posted by steve
on Jul 29, 2004 12:54 PM | Also by steve
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Virginia,
Country: United States |
Personally, I'm not comfortable pigeon-holing it. I think depending on the individual it could be learned, biological and/or a mental illness.
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Message 138137 (In Reply to Message 138093)
Posted by Silverthorne
on Jul 29, 2004 01:37 PM | Also by Silverthorne
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Arizona,
Country: United States |
"My take on it is that among boys who are sexualized at a young age whether it be through pornography depicting males together or sexual abuse by a male, they are much more likely to develop a homosexual lifestyle."
I'm familiar with Exodus as well and believe down deep its a religious program as well. By hardwired I mean I believe from a very early age sexual orientation is "set" due to both nature and nurture (combination of events).
I also wonder what IS the "homosexual lifestyle"? People make it sound like a vacation or something? A type of trip?
It's not even a way of life. I know some homosexual couples who have been together over ten years living quiet lives on suburban streets. There is no "lifestyle". Asking them to "change" and become heterosexual is the same as asking a heterosexual to suddenly become gay. How easy would that be?
I've known many gay people in my life and NONE of them say they choose to be gay. In fact many express a desire to "go straight". I've also known two people who went thru Exodus. (I recently read one of the Exodus founders was found in a gay bar and they called it a "lapse" and "battle with temptation"????????). I've seen Exodus "graduates" on TV who were married and they say "they fight the temptation everyday". In otherwords they're still homosexual. What they've done is learned to "live" like a heterosexual, get married, have sex with women, but deep down inside nothing has changed.
All they've changed is the behavior.
Silverthorne
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Message 138138 (In Reply to Message 138094)
Actavail - opps your right
Posted by Silverthorne
on Jul 29, 2004 01:41 PM | Also by Silverthorne
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Arizona,
Country: United States |
"I don't see how any of these 'whys' (which I agree with) have anything to say about pedophilia being a 'mental' disorder. "
Good point Actavail I didn't address that at all did I?
It's a mental disorder because its against societies norms (honestly). But we have to live by societies rules and anything outside the "norm" is considered a disorder.
My view is thinking this way in and of itself isnt a disorder (I mean I can't help it Im attracted to boys). But ACTING on it and failing to take measures to avoid it ARE problems.
I accepted long ago that I can't really change my sexual "attractions". But I can direct them toward healthy outlets (like masturbation with adult gay porn - not really healthy but acceptable). I can also take steps to ensure I'm not exposed unnecessarily to boys so I don't have to deal with the stress my conflicted feelings about them bring about.
Silverthorne
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Message 138146 (In Reply to Message 138138)
Posted by Actavail
on Jul 29, 2004 04:00 PM | Also by Actavail
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United Kingdom |
It's a mental disorder because its against societies norms (honestly). But we have to live by societies rules and anything outside the "norm" is considered a disorder.
By that token, homosexuality was a mental illness until very recently. and would still be considered so by great swathes of the community. If everyone who had thoughts outside society's rules was considered mentally ill we would be in big, big trouble. as happened in Communist Russia.
My view is thinking this way in and of itself isnt a disorder (I mean I can't help it Im attracted to boys). But ACTING on it and failing to take measures to avoid it ARE problems.
Hey we are in (almost) complete agreement!! Acting on it is a big problem, failing to take measures to avoid it MAY be a problem if
a) you do not recognise the risks of acting out
or
b) you recognise the risks but act out anyway
or
c) the feelings are just too intense to control
a and b c are factors which influence ALL kinds of human behaviour violence, sexuality, greed, gluttony. They are not unique to paedophiles.
Not so long ago, homosexuals were thought to be 'morally impaired' and 'sick'. "After all how could anyone capable of that NOT be sick. And if they are sick they cannot help themseleves". As you pointed out, there is really no such thing as the 'homosexual' lifestyle or behaviour. The only thing that defines a homosexual is their attraction to men, nothing else. They have exactly the same moral strengths and failings as anyone else.
I understand your wish to 'medicalise' paedophilia:
1. I agree that better access to psychological support would make a big difference to many pedophiles who are struggling to control their behaviour.
2. The only way to get such help is to categorize paedophilia as an illness , which opens the doors to funding for such help.
but that is an artifact of the way that medical care is funded.
Here's another interesting thought! (If you do not believe in Evolutionary Genetics, I suggest you bail out here).
Why does homosexuality exist? On the face of things, since it clearly diminishes a mans capacity to procreate and pass on his genes, it should have disappeared long ago. Even a rate of 1 or 2% if homosexuals in a community is way above what should confinue to exist be 'random mutation' . The strong implication is that the obvious drawbacks are outweighed by some other genetic benefit. Perhaps having a partial expression of the 'homosexuality gene' confers benefit on men who are outwardly heterosexual. There was an interesting article in New Scientist on this last year.
Ok here goes!! What if the same applies to paedophilia?!? Full expression is harmful but perhaps whatever drives some men to be attracted to children , if possesed in small amounts is actually beneficial. - it is part of what makes them 'like' kids and want to care for them.
This seems strange but if you apply it to other human traits such as propensity to jealousy, you can see how it might work. A little bit of jealousy is 'normal' and perhaps helps cement a relationship "He cares about me", whilst full expression of jealously can be immensely destructive.
Proof, who needs proof!!
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Message 138158 (In Reply to Message 138118)
Posted by orolan
on Jul 29, 2004 05:12 PM | Also by orolan
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
I agree that age is the simplest method to use. What I disagree with is the apparent inability to make adjustments to those ages. Maturity in teens is cyclical, apparently based on what society requires of them or allows them to do.
Centuries ago, due to life expectancy and a host of other factors, most teens were married, had children, and had their own piece of land to farm by age 16-18. As society evolved from agrarian to industrial, we began thinking that schooling was more important. Marriages were pushed to later ages and the teens stayed "at home" longer, to learn more in school or to work in their father's business. As a result, the teens were no longer required to take on the responsibilities of family and meting out a living from the soil. With the need removed, the ability to fulfill that need if required slowly went away. The teen had no "need" to learn how to shoot a gun to kill game for tonight's meal for exxample, because now all that was required was to ask Mom what was for supper.
Today's society in several ways is no different than that earlier agrarian society. In these days of single-parent families, latchkey kids and the perpetual "climb up the corporate ladder", teens are asked to fend for themselves. Many are asked to tend to younger siblings because Mom works at night. Some might even have to have a job themselves, just to help pay the bills. Mom and Dad often are more concerned about their career than they are about their children. Many times they scream out in anger at the teen with a "why don't you GROW UP and act like an adult!" when the teen does something stupid and immature.
And yet we maintain that arbitrary age, claiming these teens are immature and have no concept of responsibility and what is right or wrong.
That is, until they do something like get a little too friendly with the girl next door. Suddenly they are mature, and are to be held "responsible" for these "adult" actions.
Anyway, I ramble off-topic. Sorry.
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Message 138160 (In Reply to Message 138146)
Personally
Posted by assumption18
on Jul 29, 2004 05:40 PM | Also by assumption18
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: District of Columbia,
Country: United States |
I would just like to see more effort being made to reach those pedophiles who see the sexual side of their attraction as the be all and end all.
I mean, amognst other sexualities (hetero and homo, etc) there are those who get obsessed with the sexuality (spend hours downloading porn on the internet, etc, or rack up thousands of pounds on hotline phone sex, etc), but it seems there is a higher degree amongst pedophiles.
Perhaps this is because they do not know that there is more. They read the papers, here about being locked up, and read about some of the lives people have to live if they go for therapy, they see that "coming clean" would mean they get to have no contact with children at all, and when they are so engrossed in that one sexual aspect, it becomes almost like a dependency and they must seek out harder and harder stuff to fulfill themselves.
If it was only publically known the amount of PEDOPHILES (yes DP1, someone who is sexually attracted to children, and drawn to them) who were not obsessed with downloading or trading pictures /videos or actual children for mainly sexual satisfaction, at least those in the "pit" would have a chance to see that there was a way to live that does not cut off their arm (ie seperate them from children all togehter) but at the same time, does not lead them into a situation where they would have to act out on their sexual desires.
But people are not going ot turn their lives upside down for something that they most likely deny, and so, the situation continues.
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Message 138163 (In Reply to Message 138129)
DP1
Posted by orolan
on Jul 29, 2004 05:51 PM | Also by orolan
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
There's no proof of that Orolan.
Nor is there any proof it is not. Pedophilia as a "learned behavior" has a far steeper credibility hill to climb.
No doubt the conflict comes from just what a pedophile IS. I don't see a domineering, controlling and manipulative man who preys on 10 year-olds as a "pedophile". I see him as a domineering, controlling and manipulative man who is too chicke-sh*t to try that stuff on an adult who can walk away, or beat the crap out of him. Or maybe he DID try it on a few adults, and the resultant walkings-away or beatings caused him to work his way down the age range until he found a group he could work with. In that case, the bahavior is "learned". But he's no pedophile. His age-attraction has nothing to do with the physical makeup or "beauty" of the child.
As for healthy relationships, look at it this way. I have a certain "ideal" woman, as most men do. That "perfect" mate. That is what I desire, and I dated quite a few women who met most of the requirements. So one might say my desire for this mate is similar to pedophilia. It's an intense desire, since it controlled my dating choices for years. It spanned time, far longer than the 6-month requirement for diagnosing pedophilia. I still long for that mate, and often cast an inquisitive eye towards possible "candidates".
And yet I have a healthy relationship now with a young lady who meets only one of the requirements. How can that be? Simple. That desire no longer controls my life, I control it. I still cast an inquisitive eye towards certain women who seem to fit the bill and "wonder". But that doesn't mean I love E..... any less, or find her "lacking".
Anyway, I need to do some work today. So I need to move on;-)
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Message 138172 (In Reply to Message 138137)
"Born gay?" No Way!
Posted by fallenone
on Jul 29, 2004 06:36 PM | Also by fallenone
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Ohio,
Country: United States |
i don't totally buy the notion that anyone is "born gay" any more than I believe I was "born to" sexually abuse an underage girl. I believe our experiences play a bigger role in who we are than our genetic makeup, though we have certain inclinations given to us through our parents. So someone else is forced into a sexual encounter as a child then grows up to be gay. I've personally experienced the opposite effect. I was forced into a sexual experience as a child by a male. I can't stand homosexuality to this day and that has nothing to do with "doctrination" by my faith (I've only been Catholic since my prison stay, before that I was Satanist and later agnostic). But I learned to like the feel of a woman at a young age and my deviant pattern stemmed from that part of my upbringing. I believe my environment played the bigger factor in my downward spiral, though I won't completely rule out genetics. I just won't totally give into the "I was born that way" belief.
The Fallen One
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Message 138178 (In Reply to Message 138127)
so your saying???
Posted by JakeLF
on Jul 29, 2004 11:36 PM | Also by JakeLF
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
Dp1 are you saying that someone cannot be called a pedophile unless they actually have children as sex partners? I might not understand that completely but I think that someone can be diagnosed a pedophile without actually ever having any sexual contact with a child. They can go to a therapist and admitt there feelings towards children and all that, I dont think they need to actually have been with children to be diagnosed as a pedophile. But as always I know that you will prove me wrong in not having a clue what I am talking about.
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Message 138189 (In Reply to Message 138067)
hold up...
Posted by assumption18
on Jul 30, 2004 03:04 AM | Also by assumption18
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: District of Columbia,
Country: United States |
What you do though is develop coping strategies to deal with the stress children cause.
Children cause you stress?
Moreso than others?
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Message 138194 (In Reply to Message 138189)
Assumption
Posted by Silverthorne
on Jul 30, 2004 04:38 AM | Also by Silverthorne
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Arizona,
Country: United States |
Yes they cause stress. You have to understand it isnt the kids alone that cause it. Its the reaction you have to the feelings kids being around cause.
KID WALKS UP - YOU GET AROUSED - YOU GET DISGUSTED WITH YOURSELF - YOU GET UPSET / DEPRESSED / ETC
So its a cycle. Look at Jake. He's very disturbed by his feelings for kids. Moreso then anything else I believe.
Silverthorne
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Message 138195 (In Reply to Message 138172)
OK Fallen then.....
Posted by Silverthorne
on Jul 30, 2004 04:39 AM | Also by Silverthorne
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Arizona,
Country: United States |
If you learned to "love the feel" of women early on then why dont all molested children grow up to be molesters?
Why do children with no molestation in thier background grow up to be molesters?
Silverthorne
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Message 138226 (In Reply to Message 138194)
Ahh thats where its different
Posted by assumption18
on Jul 30, 2004 09:41 PM | Also by assumption18
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: District of Columbia,
Country: United States |
Im only speaking for myself, because at the end of the day, I CAN only speak for myself:
KID WALKS UP - YOU GET AROUSED - YOU GET DISGUSTED WITH YOURSELF - YOU GET UPSET / DEPRESSED / ETC
A kid walks up to me, lets not talk about boys because I do not find them attractive. Lets say a 7yo (for I think that is the best age) girl skips up to me smiling, I don't get aroused, because I see them and I noticed that they are attractive, pretty, I may notice their legs, their top, their face (hopefully smiling), but its not like I feel sexually aroused from it, I mean, I could if I so choosed, but that is the difference, I am not sexually aroused no longer with it being a choice on my part, I see a child and I feel attracted to them in other ways, like their beauty, I do get something from it, just like a person seeing a cute girl would I suppose, but only exemplified, it just makes me smile.
I do not hate myself for that, as I dont get disgusted with myself for thinking completely clean thoughts, so I dont get upset, rather I feel happier, calmer, positive, and so they do not stress me, and therefore do not feel stressed to do anything or think/act a certain way.
To you its convicting, to me its liberating, I do not know why, properly, but I definately want to research how I could react that different.
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Message 138227 (In Reply to Message 138195)
And also
Posted by assumption18
on Jul 30, 2004 09:42 PM | Also by assumption18
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: District of Columbia,
Country: United States |
Those who have been molested, not all grow up to molest.
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Message 138228 (In Reply to Message 138163)
:)
Posted by assumption18
on Jul 30, 2004 09:43 PM | Also by assumption18
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: District of Columbia,
Country: United States |
Well put.
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Message 138234 (In Reply to Message 138227)
Molested -to Molester
Posted by Actavail
on Jul 30, 2004 10:55 PM | Also by Actavail
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United Kingdom |
Had some thoughts about this!!
I find it difficult to understand how the mechanics of the cycle of abuse are supposed to work. Take Silver's example - he had a loving, caring family but was violently sexually assaulted. It just makes no sense to me how this could lead someone to wish to assault a kid themselves. Perhaps one or two might be filled by a sense of revenge but why take it out on another kid?
There may be one or two who enjoyed the experience to a degree (clearly a SMALL number with minor abuse and a high degree of willingness) but I doubt if this is common.
We do know that the most harmful abuse occurs in families where there is a general undercurrent of emotional and physical abuse. In these situations violence and coercion, physical,mental and sexual are almost the norm.
Not only are these the scenarios that seem to cause the most emotional damge because the abused child is in a really conflicted situation but the actual level of abuse seems to be higher - IOW the abuser seems to care less about the child and is more violent and coercive.
It is a real 'dog-eat-dog' environment. How often do we see these sort of family dynamics and are not surprised when the kids turn out as chaotic and 'unloving' as their parents.?
Now THAT I can see!
If getting what you want (whatever you want) is mostly done by coercion and violence with little appreciation of the other person involved and that is the only way you know how and "it didn't do me any harm". - That seems to me to be to be just the sort of scenario that could perpetuate the cycle of abuse. I wonder if there is any research to support or refute - time to go on a hunt!!
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Message 138254 (In Reply to Message 138163)
Posted by brennus
on Jul 31, 2004 03:11 AM | Also by brennus
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Wisconsin,
Country: United States |
I have a certain "ideal" woman, as most men do. That "perfect" mate. That is what I desire, and I dated quite a few women who met most of the requirements. So one might say my desire for this mate is similar to pedophilia. It's an intense desire, since it controlled my dating choices for years. It spanned time, far longer than the 6-month requirement for diagnosing pedophilia. I still long for that mate, and often cast an inquisitive eye towards possible "candidates".
And yet I have a healthy relationship now with a young lady who meets only one of the requirements. How can that be? Simple. That desire no longer controls my life, I control it.
How did you learn to control it? I am a 23-year old who is interested in women in their 40s. However, hetero women in their 40s are not interested in me, even as friends, and I'm losing confidence that they ever will, for now. For some reason, lesblans in their 40s ARE comfortable with me as friends. Do I do MAC work or work similar to what a pedophile would do to control that desire are rewire it towards women in their 20s?
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Message 138269 (In Reply to Message 138178)
Jake
Posted by dp1
on Jul 31, 2004 12:45 PM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
But as always I know that you will prove me wrong in not having a clue what I am talking about.
Then look it up yourself and quit whining.
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Message 138274 (In Reply to Message 138195)
Posted by fallenone
on Jul 31, 2004 05:54 PM | Also by fallenone
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Ohio,
Country: United States |
Sorry but i still feel more of it is learned behavior than genetics. There are also molesters who don't have deviant sexaul behavior running through their families, just as many gays are the only gay in their families. I know my own personal tastes change a little bit over time and have been influenced by my experiences, including sexual attitudes and desires. And that would have never taken place with the "I was born that way"attitude. I was told all my life I was crazy and after a while I was playing up to that belief and believed it myself. Now that i'm apart from those people who told me those things I've been a hellof a lot better. The effects still linger from time to time but my depression and anger have greatly subsided and I'm tooyoung to attribute it to a mellowing out with age. That's the thing-- so many people are willing to blow off their own personal shortcomings tosomething beyond their control. And learning to enjoy the feel of a woman early on doesn't mean every child who experiences what I did becomes molesters, just as not everyone who has a homosexual experience early on is a queen for life. The learned experience simply unl;ocks certain inclinations we may have. But others never unearth these inclinations. I don't rule genetics out entirely but I don't attribute 100% to nature (or even to nurture for that matter). I say both but I emphasize nurture over nature. There are many people out there whohad addictions such as sex or drugs. that was their inclinations. Yet today these things don't rule over their lives because now they've learned to control and overcome these illicit inclinations. Most people who say "I was born that way" usuaaly also say "I can't change who I am." I used to think that way and look what happened to me.
The Fallen One
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Message 138325 (In Reply to Message 138178)
Jake
Posted by fallenone
on Aug 02, 2004 07:34 PM | Also by fallenone
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Ohio,
Country: United States |
Man youreally need to learn to start sticking up for yourself. As long as you allow other people to scare you into bowing out of a belief you have your personal battles will be that much harder for you. Just because DP1 works with SOs means only so much. She is still a human capable of being wrong A LOT, and being biased. It seems to me you want to speak up but you are intimidated by her for some reason. don't think that just because you have done a bad thing that you are forever discredited from knowing truth, knoewledge, and change. If you cannot stand for something you'll fall for anything. Trust me on this. Just because she's a PO and you aren't doesn't mean you have no knowledge.
F1
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Message 138551 (In Reply to Message 138274)
hmmmmm
Posted by myoung
on Aug 09, 2004 01:47 PM | Also by myoung
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Pennsylvania,
Country: United States |
it is interesting that a child as young as 9 (sometimes earlier) knows they are attracted to the same sex....even then. This same boy might grow up in a very "manly" house (i.e. dad hunts, teaches son football, etc.) This child grows into a young man and in high school hides hs true feelings by dating girls and acting "like a man". He then finds himself liberated by giong away to college and spreading his wings. The feelings of "never feeling at home in his own skin" can finally be overcome by having a loving, two sided relationship with another man without the judgement of those he loves back home. This is not a learned behavior folks!! He learned to play football, hunt, love his mother, treat women with respect, etc. Perfect all american male. What happened?? This isn't a rare scenario I am speakiing of here and you all know it. You can argue nurture nature all you want but when that gay person grows up and says he knew at a very young age, what are we to say, you were obviously groomed by your loving parents to be this way?! I don't think so. I have many gay friends who tell me that same thing and did not have abusive households, etc. Regardless of how others feel about gay people, they aren't trying to sleep with children. That is the difference. Being gay doesn't automatically make one a pedo or child molester. This type of relationship is between two consenting adults so the only eyes it is wrong in are the religious fanatics out there who can't think outside the box. .
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Message 138552 (In Reply to Message 138158)
orolan
Posted by myoung
on Aug 09, 2004 02:04 PM | Also by myoung
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Pennsylvania,
Country: United States |
You are right on the mark here though so....not useless rambling ;)
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Message 138562 (In Reply to Message 138551)
Posted by fallenone
on Aug 09, 2004 07:08 PM | Also by fallenone
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Ohio,
Country: United States |
Where the hell did you see being gay makes you a pedo? I said the two use the same arguments, being "I was born that way." Still, you missed the point. I say it's a bit of both, you say we're born that way. Whatever. There will always be those who convince themselves to believe you and feel hopeless for change. If Gays are all just born that way then so are pedos. That's odd, because my sexual tastes have changed over the years. I guess that wakes me living proof that nature alone is a fallacy unless of course you question me personally which you of course have no right to.
F1
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Message 138574 (In Reply to Message 138562)
gays and pedos
Posted by myoung
on Aug 10, 2004 12:15 AM | Also by myoung
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Pennsylvania,
Country: United States |
There is a social assumption out there that gays are likely to target kids....I am sure you've heard this fallacy, no? That had been brought up when gay couples were attempting to adopt, be athletic coaches, etc. What I am willing to say until I take my last breath on this earth is that I don't place these two things in any similar category because gay people are consenting adults. Pedos and child molesters target those who are not their equal on any plane of existence. HUGE difference. But, knowing your points of view, it doesn't surprise me that you replied as you did.
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Message 138605 (In Reply to Message 138562)
Fallen has a point
Posted by Silverthorne
on Aug 10, 2004 07:17 AM | Also by Silverthorne
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Arizona,
Country: United States |
Fallen attempts to make the point that people with attractions to minors may also "always" have been that way. I know looking at my own background (minus the rape) I was always attracted to boys. My fantasies involve a certain amount of violence which is directly related to my own experience. But who is to say if I was never raped I'd have not still been a pedophile or a gay male?
Who knows? I do know that the vast majority (like over 90%) of "boylovers" posting on boylover boards do say they have "known" theyve liked boys since they were 12 or 13. Thats the same age that most homosexuals acknowledge they "know theyre different". So what is it that happens at that age? Or does anything happen? Is it they were always that way? After all humans become sexually "alive" around that age (puberty).
Who knows?
Silverthorne
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Message 138634 (In Reply to Message 138574)
Posted by fallenone
on Aug 10, 2004 09:00 PM | Also by fallenone
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Ohio,
Country: United States |
And knowing YOUR point of view I expect you to miss the point entirely. Actually, I've heard more reluctance to let gay couples have kids and related child activities because people are afraid they will teach them to be gay. Thus people tend to think it is LEARNED behavior. Now can you see what I'm saying? It would benefit you to actually listen to other people for a change, even ones you don't like.
F1
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Message 138674 (In Reply to Message 138552)
myoung
Posted by orolan
on Aug 12, 2004 12:06 AM | Also by orolan
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
Glad you think so, since we tend to butt heads more often than we agree;-)
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Message 138725 (In Reply to Message 138634)
fallen
Posted by myoung
on Aug 13, 2004 01:53 PM | Also by myoung
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Pennsylvania,
Country: United States |
I ALWAYS listen. That doesn't mean I am automatically gonna agree with you. I have three children....listening and being patient is my forte in life. But, I have too many gay friends who tell me the same story about their realization about themselves at such a young age that it begs the question of nature/nurture. I will not believe it is WRONG just because so many others believe that. I have my own mind thank you very much and I draw my own conclusions based on evidence......it is the chemist in me I can't help that. If I lived with a cheating father my whole life does that mean I would grow up to have less scruples than everyone else? Does it mean I would be fidelity challenged? That is ludicrous
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Message 138726 (In Reply to Message 138605)
silver
Posted by myoung
on Aug 13, 2004 02:03 PM | Also by myoung
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Pennsylvania,
Country: United States |
I do agree that being attracted to children is probably a born in feature. The only thing I have a problem with is lumping them in with everyone else. Gay people don't go after children unless they are also child molesters. I am just saying that comparing them is unwise. Gay and hetero's seek out partners who are consenting adults.
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Thread
137979, assumption18, Jul 26, 2004 08:14 PM [Would it work for heterosexuals?]
137983, dp1, Jul 26, 2004 09:02 PM
137986, assumption18, Jul 26, 2004 10:36 PM [but]
137994, dp1, Jul 26, 2004 11:35 PM
138002, brennus, Jul 27, 2004 01:39 AM [therapy in general]
138007, dp1, Jul 27, 2004 03:34 AM [Brennus]
138057, JakeLF, Jul 27, 2004 09:25 PM [What If?]
138059, brennus, Jul 27, 2004 10:58 PM
138067, Silverthorne, Jul 28, 2004 03:39 AM [Your not cured......]
138189, assumption18, Jul 30, 2004 03:04 AM [hold up...]
138194, Silverthorne, Jul 30, 2004 04:38 AM [Assumption]
138226, assumption18, Jul 30, 2004 09:41 PM [Ahh thats where its diffe...]
138084, fallenone, Jul 28, 2004 05:19 PM [Jake]
138049, assumption18, Jul 27, 2004 07:03 PM [back to the point]
138056, brennus, Jul 27, 2004 09:11 PM
138070, Silverthorne, Jul 28, 2004 03:52 AM
138093, momwants2help, Jul 28, 2004 09:25 PM
138137, Silverthorne, Jul 29, 2004 01:37 PM
138172, fallenone, Jul 29, 2004 06:36 PM ["Born gay?" No Way!]
138195, Silverthorne, Jul 30, 2004 04:39 AM [OK Fallen then.....]
138227, assumption18, Jul 30, 2004 09:42 PM [And also]
138234, Actavail, Jul 30, 2004 10:55 PM [Molested -to Molester]
138274, fallenone, Jul 31, 2004 05:54 PM
138551, myoung, Aug 09, 2004 01:47 PM [hmmmmm]
138562, fallenone, Aug 09, 2004 07:08 PM
138574, myoung, Aug 10, 2004 12:15 AM [gays and pedos]
138634, fallenone, Aug 10, 2004 09:00 PM
138725, myoung, Aug 13, 2004 01:53 PM [fallen]
138605, Silverthorne, Aug 10, 2004 07:17 AM [Fallen has...]
138726, myoung, Aug 13, 2004 02:03 PM [silver]
138068, Silverthorne, Jul 28, 2004 03:47 AM
138094, Actavail, Jul 28, 2004 09:27 PM
138098, dp1, Jul 28, 2004 10:38 PM
138104, JakeLF, Jul 28, 2004 11:39 PM [Nothing in common with heterosexual...]
138111, Actavail, Jul 29, 2004 12:18 AM
138107, Actavail, Jul 28, 2004 11:54 PM
138127, dp1, Jul 29, 2004 06:47 AM [Actavail]
138178, JakeLF, Jul 29, 2004 11:36 PM [so your saying???]
138269, dp1, Jul 31, 2004 12:45 PM [Jake]
138325, fallenone, Aug 02, 2004 07:34 PM [Jake]
138110, orolan, Jul 29, 2004 12:12 AM
138129, dp1, Jul 29, 2004 07:17 AM [Orolan]
138132, steve, Jul 29, 2004 12:54 PM
138163, orolan, Jul 29, 2004 05:51 PM [DP1]
138228, assumption18, Jul 30, 2004 09:43 PM [:)]
138254, brennus, Jul 31, 2004 03:11 AM
138138, Silverthorne, Jul 29, 2004 01:41 PM [Actavail - opps your right]
138146, Actavail, Jul 29, 2004 04:00 PM
138160, assumption18, Jul 29, 2004 05:40 PM [Personally]
138105, orolan, Jul 28, 2004 11:47 PM
138108, JakeLF, Jul 28, 2004 11:57 PM [Observation]
138118, steve, Jul 29, 2004 01:30 AM
&nbs | | |
