|
|
Forum: Victims and Survivors Corner
Thread (Discussion): Privacy, victrims, and risk. Help.
Message 173177
Posted by Quest
on Feb 12, 2006 09:09 PM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: 30 - 39,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
Those I love are dealing with something and I could use some opinions if you don't have answers.
A lot of rapists are not charged. Either the victim or the state decide not to.
Now suppose there is a young man who is in an organization that attracts a lot of teenage girls. Suppose he raped one and wasn't charged. Suppose the victim is humiliated and wants to keep it secret.
People gossip. They always have and always will. We gossipped 100,000 years ago about the lions and tigers that lived up the path in the thicket. Gossip is a survival tool. The registry is a form of structured gossip.
I have a lot of hurting people around me right now. Confused too. I'm one of them but I chose this damned subject to be interested in and deserve everything I get. No one, me included, chose to have this thing happen and I'm watching two families and a really close friend group come apart at the seams.
I have some questions or requests.
1. Tell me about the humiliation part of being a victim and tell me about secrets. Are they good for the victim or bad or somewhere in the middle?
2. Why does a victim seem unapproachable do they now distrust everyone?
3. How are we obligated to protect his next victim from walking blindly into his trap? How do we balance that with the choices of the current victim?
I don't know what's right and wrong here anymore. Things are so tangled that anyone taking a step here steps on someone they didn't intend to.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread
Message 173202 (In Reply to Message 173177)
Posted by june5
on Feb 13, 2006 03:17 AM | Also by june5
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
Wow, this is a difficult and charged set of questions. Everybody has their own opinion and I'm not sure there is really a right or wrong set of answers. I can only answer on my own experience as a rape victim.
Tell me about the humiliation part of being a victim and tell me about secrets. Are they good for the victim or bad or somewhere in the middle?
I felt humiliated because it is such a personal violation for someone else to be actually inside your body without your consent. It made me feel almost non-human. I felt humilated because at first I felt like it was somehow my fault, like I must be an idiot for this to happen to me. I didn't keep it secret, I went to the police. I don't know if it is good for someone to keep it a secret. It wasn't for me--I felt empowered by prosecuting him. But everyone is different.
Why does a victim seem unapproachable do they now distrust everyone?
I was unapproachable for some time because yes, I did distrust everyone. That went away to a large degree over time. I think I am still more distrustful then most people because I was raped.
How are we obligated to protect his next victim from walking blindly into his trap? How do we balance that with the choices of the current victim?
It is natural to want to stop this guy before he hurts someone else. That is what "tipped the scales" for me in coming forward. I didn't want anyone else to go through what I was going through. I would really abide by the wishes of the victim. The victim probably feels very scared, guily, and distrustful of the world. If the victim is trusting this "secret" with you and doesn't wish for LE to be notified, I would imagine she would be horrified and feel betrayed by maybe one of the few people she feels she can still trust. She was the one who was victimized, I think she is the one to make the decision.
I know some people will not agree with some of the things I say; this is just based on my own experience, I am not trying to debate anyone.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (173177)
Message 173226 (In Reply to Message 173177)
Posted by cass117
on Feb 13, 2006 09:21 PM | Also by cass117
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: North Carolina,
Country: United States |
there was a high level of humiliation for me ,even at 9yrs old i would scrub myself red raw just to get what i called the heebie jeebies off me.i was amazing with the secret and every victim is .there is a god given gift called blocking out and i used that constantly even during every day life when the abuse stopped at age 12.it all just goes away.i think sometimes i would have passed a lie detector test.for some reason at 15yrs old i stopped being able to blockout things.it frustrated me so much because i had mastered it and used it all the time.i finally tried to overdose and everything came out.i had and still have serious trust issues .i dont like people staring at me or touching me at all if i dont know them .through therapy this past year i am now able to deal; better with this. i do have guilt and feel obligated to another victim but my first obligation is to myself as should yours with the victim .the statutes ran out on me but it was a family member so i know what they are up to through other relatives.it was such an emotional thing for me and i didnt get alot of support at first so please dont ask too many questions it is hard to discuss early on ,let her come to you but always give supportso she doesnt feel alone.i am so sorry for this situation and the hurt the girl is going through remember it takes a while to get angry so try not to be to emotional around her i always felt like i had to help my family deal with it and it only postponed me getting help.i promise you can live life and live it with no horrible voices in your head saying your bad or what did i do to deserve this,i must have done something wrong. i have healed and hate being referred to as a victim .i am a surviver now and i see all to often abuse victims wallowing in there own self pity i refused to let my abuser hold me in the palm of his hands any longer.it took 10yrs but i did id.good luck to you and i hope this helps.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (173177)
Message 173281 (In Reply to Message 173202)
Posted by Quest
on Feb 15, 2006 01:15 AM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
Word got out on this rape and it got back to the organization of which she was a member and she felt humiliated all over again. That is a bad thing. But people there at least have a heads up that this guys after hours bonding may result in rape. That's a good thing. People got very upset and one of the people who was emotionally distraught to the nth degree confided in a best friend who had a brother that took it upon himself to stop the guy.
The secrecy it seems to me is a bad thing. I noticed that people around her, parents and friends protected her from talking to anyone. But these people didn't want to bring it up. So everyone around pretends that there is not a four ton pink elephant standing in the middle of the living room.
My niece was six and it was found out that the postman across the street was having her over for sex parties with his two sons and a foster son for a year. We all got really quiet for about 12 years. Whispers and secrets. As if this child should feel ashamed for what they did to her.
Isn't all the silence of those that love the victims of rape an affirmation of the shame they feel?
Also. Is it not the perfect ticket for the serial rapist to just keep on raping?
On the other hand I have a whole other side argument for secrecy but I'll let someone respond to this first.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (173202)
Message 173282 (In Reply to Message 173202)
Posted by Quest
on Feb 15, 2006 01:23 AM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
this is a difficult and charged set of questions.
This is a place where we don't want to twist the knife. We want to be considerate of fragility. But shouldn't we be digging down and talking about some of this charged stuff?
I get angry when I run up against what seems to be a conspiracy of silence. For a long time the silence protected the men who did these things and I think they helped keep up the walls. Today it seems we are doing the same because some things are difficult to discuss with victims and there are some deeply hurtful things that about rape that no one wants to bring to the table anymore.
There should be a place where we all get this out in the open and discuss it with civility. I don't think it is going to get better unless we do. Where is that place and who wants to take it on?
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (173202)
Message 173338 (In Reply to Message 173282)
i will take it on
Posted by cass117
on Feb 18, 2006 02:54 AM | Also by cass117
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: North Carolina,
Country: United States |
how can i help you?i often feel like i cant say certain things for fear of hurting a victim or really being slammed by the non victims who just think it is so cut and dry.if you want to start this you can pm me.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (173282)
Message 173346 (In Reply to Message 173282)
Quest
Posted by june5
on Feb 18, 2006 03:36 AM | Also by june5
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
Your point of view makes perfect sense and your outrage is very understandable.
Yes, the "secrets" can make it easier for someone who is a serial rapist to keep on raping others.
I think if you care about someone who is a victim, you should definitely be talking with her about it and not telling her to sweep it under the rug. You should tell her that it is not her fault and that you will be there for her and support her no matter what she decides to do about it.
From my own point of view, as a victim I felt like someone had taken all my power away. I couldn't imagine going to someone I trusted and telling them what happened to me, and then having them go against my wishes and tell the authorities. I would have felt doubly victimized.
The rape victim is the one who was wronged, isn't it her decision alone what to do about it? It would be a noble thing for her to try to stop someone who might be a serial rapist, but is it her responsibility? If the guy continues to rape others, this victim could hardly be blamed for that.
Obviously, these opinions are my own, and I am sure other victims might have different opinions. It also makes a difference how old the victim is.
Where can we discuss this out in the open? I have no idea. But you are right, it is something that should be happening.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (173282)
Message 173348 (In Reply to Message 173226)
Posted by Quest
on Feb 18, 2006 05:07 AM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
Why do you think a 9 yr old would be humiliated and feel 'dirty'? At what age does this start? I have a theory that it's built into us. In different ways for men and women and with some things in common.
Too little is said about how females flirt and beckon males. As an opening line I know where your mind may go with that and I'd like to ask you to keep the anger from coloring my next words.
Flirting females don't want to be raped or even have sex. Neither do flirting males. We all want and need to attract human intimacy. While the ultimate goal of biology and DNA is to have sex and get replicated, we humans are a beautiful and simple formula that is poetically complex. If you were some alien studying us you would see us innocently approaching each other and snuggling up in the night. If the alien had something resembling human emotion a tear would be shed and they would feel endearment.
We seek to bond together. I can see it in two year olds. We put it out there and we expect the other persons to reflect without distortion what we put forth. Ayn Rand's lover and student , Nathaniel Brandon, empathizes the importance of the non-distorted reflection of ourselves in those we engage. He describes bad relationships as being reflected in a funhouse mirror.
The ultimate bad relationship is rape and child sexual abuse. There is a bad thing that runs deep in us humans. We often see flirting as sexual advance. Think about what you think when a male asks you to dance in a club or 'hits' on you. He just wants me for a night. of sex. Males that say 'she asked for it' are doing exactly the same thing. Reducing the wonder of human love and romance into something insect-like and lustful.
If you look at all of this human interaction as a biologist that is what you would conclude and rightly so if you reduce it to biochemistry without poetry.
The truth is that we humans have developed a very poetic way of mating that is not about shooting sperm at eggs even though that is the driving force behind what evolved us. When we flirt we are opening a door into our souls and we expect a decent amount of negotiation before we commit to anything more personal than a dance or two.
The male rapist seeks to ejaculate and use and that is not a true reflection of flirting's intent. I have tried to dance at clubs, because I like to dance techno, with women who have slapped me down like I wanted to have sex with them and I imagine that this is a very small dose of what rape feels like. It makes me dizzy and sick and it makes me want to explain myself to them but I ultimately know that everything I do will be reflected in this funhouse mirror.
That urge to explain and be reflected properly is I think what attracts some women to rapists. They keep trying to be treated as if they are a human with a brain and they keep running into an ejaculate driven monster who misreads them and only wants to use them.
I have some complicated theories about mate evaluation and self evaluation that make sense of some of this. Theories that predict women who are raped putting themselves in a position to be raped again and even putting their daughters in the same place. Theories that explain males who proxy their own loss of self respect in women who smell like victims.
I keep a faith that my theories will change some of this. But I sound like an alien or a vending machine sometimes and I feel like an idiot because my sons hurt and I hurt and these two young ladies hurt and I knew somewhere in my soul that this thing was coming. So far my theories are batting zero and the rapists a hundred.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (173226)
Message 173360 (In Reply to Message 173282)
Posted by Valerie
on Feb 18, 2006 06:05 PM | Also by Valerie
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
There are just too many pages to try and get on with this subject. and too many variables...but it goes without saying the victims should always be a priority. But there are too many fingers in the pot all with different agendas and motives. Good Luck..
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (173282)
Message 173390 (In Reply to Message 173348)
Quest
Posted by june5
on Feb 19, 2006 02:40 AM | Also by june5
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
Quest said: have some complicated theories about mate evaluation and self evaluation that make sense of some of this. Theories that predict women who are raped putting themselves in a position to be raped again and even putting their daughters in the same place. Theories that explain males who proxy their own loss of self respect in women who smell like victims.
I don't know, Quest. I don't think you meant that in a "bad" way, but that comment kind of bothered me. Speaking for myself, I have stated many times that I am never ever alone with any men I don't know, because I don't want to be raped again. Call me paranoid, but it's only happened to me once. It could happen to me again, but I guarantee that the guy would have to have a weapon, and would probably have to kill me because there is no way I would submit. I'll never go through that again. I don't know--it just seemed like your theory doesn't give very much respect or regard for the strength that many rape victims have gained through such a terrible experience.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (173348)
Message 173392 (In Reply to Message 173348)
thankyou for the response
Posted by cass117
on Feb 19, 2006 02:42 AM | Also by cass117
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: North Carolina,
Country: United States |
quest i have to thankyou for your candor and no i did not get angry i actually appreciate your honesty and point of view.you actually gave me something my wonderful therapist never made me think about ,she just told me i shouldnt feel humiliated or dirty,but i have now thought about it and i will try to answer .here is some brutal honesty quest.i wouldnt have felt that way if a pillow hadnt been placed on my face or if when he was done he didnt just say get out and not look at me reason being i thought what he did to me as a form of punishment like a childhood fight ,i did not know any better. i knew it hurt and i used to dodge him but he always said he would tell on me to put it mildly i was more afraid of my mother an alcoholic than of him . i had stole money out my mums purse and i blamed it on him.a theory i always had was that his relationship with our mum was extremely hate hate and he was often badly beaten if i told on him i would have been subjecting him to severe beatings and he sometimes protected me from them .my first boyfriend was a victim also and where i didnt like to talk about my stuff he used his as an excuse for every bad thing he did in his life.your point about ultimate bad relationship is very true i often felt that it was his way of defeating me b/c i was mums favorite and loving me b/c he felt remorse .we were a very huggy family and i am still that way w/my children and yes my hubby is now an s.o who was also sexually abused yet how do you explain that we didnt know about each others abuse until recently did we both sense the victim in each other or was it the empathy which is what i believe my husband lacked and so does every other abuser .yet we teach empathy to our children why cant we reteach them ?as far as myself being in a position to be raped again i dont believe i have b//c i am hyper sensitive around strangers .also a victim can go many different ways they may have a fear of sex ,be promiscuos,or become an abuser themselves. i would be on a label myself right now quest b/c at 9 a friend and myself played a little i was the agressor yet we were the same age .allthe antis will have a field day with this but i hope they sincerely see my honesty and respect me in thier replys b/c this was hard to write but i want to try to help anyone i can.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (173348)
Message 173493 (In Reply to Message 173177)
Posted by rebel51
on Feb 20, 2006 01:39 PM | Also by rebel51
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: California,
Country: United States |
1. Tell me about the humiliation part of being a victim and tell me about secrets. Are they good for the victim or bad or somewhere in the middle?
I was not humilitated as I was only 5, however with the secrets, they are bad. Maybe if I had not kept my Uncles "secret" it would have ended sooner. Maybe if my mom and dad had talked openly about what they did or did not do, to handle the situation, maybe I would have realized that they DID care and I would have let them know that it was still going on, so that they could have really put a stop to it. However because of the "hush-hush" type atmosphere and the secrecy..I was molested for 8 years rather than just once. I feel that open communication is the number one answer to most of lifes questions and problems. Dark things cant grow in the light.
2. Why does a victim seem unapproachable do they now distrust everyone?
Yes we do distrust everyone and we are unapproachable because we have our protective wall up that will make sure that I never am stupid enough to trust the wrong person again...the wall really doesnt help BUT I hide behind it anyway. And like another here said, I flinch whenever anyone touches me that I am not REALLY comfortable with...and there are very darn few that I am comfortable with and all it takes is ONE wrong word or move and *poof* back on the uncomfortable list you go too! Maybe to never come back off it, because you made me trust you when I should not have.
3. How are we obligated to protect his next victim from walking blindly into his trap? How do we balance that with the choices of the current victim?
This one is VERY sensitive because if you tell, when she has asked you not to, then you are just as bad as the person who raped her..you betrayed her too. (in her opinion)
However it is your obligation to tell so that there are no other victims hopefully. This is the perverbial rock and hard place.
I saw in a later post that the cat was let out of the bag and you did not have to be the one to betray her, so you are safe and can hopefully remain on the trusted list.
Just a word of advice...dont tell her all that crap you talk about, if you want to stay on her trusted list...it is really hard to trust someone who sounds like they think you may have asked for what you got..or that it was just a misunderstanding, due to DNA or what ever your theory is...not getting down on you, just saying that some of what you say can be offensive when you are on the molested/raped side of the coin.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (173177)
Message 173583 (In Reply to Message 173390)
Posted by Quest
on Feb 21, 2006 07:02 PM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
I should have qualified that. Not all rape victims do this. The ones that have not fully accepted that it wasn't there fault may do this. Child sexual abuse victims may be more vulnerable to behaviors that put them in harm's way because they haven't fully accepted that it was the rapist who decided to use them and had nothing to do with how they looked, or dressed, or how they made themselves vulnerable.
If you think about that it sounds contradictory. If you stay behind locked doors, dress in ankle length flour sacks, and never open up to anyone you wont probably get raped.
But all of us have the right to expect not to get raped or used when we do what humans do to attract proper mates. Teens have the right to wear makeup, dance sexy, and dress any damn way they please.
But there are bad people out there and we need to always consider that when we make that final vulnerable choice to be alone with them.
I think some child abuse victims and rape victims are mesmerized by that hint of aggression and darkness in males and some bad males use that to find victims.
The fact that you do not is good news and indication that you have dealt with it. Let's pass it along.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (173390)
Message 173585 (In Reply to Message 173493)
Posted by Quest
on Feb 21, 2006 07:32 PM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
...it is really hard to trust someone who sounds like they think you may have asked for what you got..[\quote]
That is at the heart of the problem of dealing with the victimized. I believe a lot of victims keep this secret self doubt inside of them. If those on the outside do not address all of the obvious issues in the hope of not upsetting them further, the secret doubt just eats them up.
My theories aside, the only reason rape happens is because a rapist decided to rape. Every man has the capacity to make the decision to not take advantage of women for sex.
After we have driven that point home with the big hammer then we can get down to things like prevention and theories about rapists and ideas about how some victims become mesmerized with bad men. And we can do so without ever losing sight of who was at fault.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (173493)
Message 173630 (In Reply to Message 173585)
Sigh
Posted by june5
on Feb 23, 2006 05:05 AM | Also by june5
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
Quest, I'm sure your heart is in the right place. It seems like to me that every thread in the victim's forum turns into some sociological experiment or "tell me the brutal details" survey. I highly doubt that there are that many victims who are mesmerized by "bad men." Actually I am not sure what that term means. Are we saying that most victims end up dating drunks and women-beaters? If that is where you are going, I don't buy it. I answered the thread honestly because you said you knew a rape victim who needed help. Whether this victim will become mesmerized by bad men is hardly the most important thing to be worrying about right now.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (173585)
Message 173653 (In Reply to Message 173630)
Posted by meli
on Feb 23, 2006 06:18 PM | Also by meli
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Tennessee,
Country: United States |
I think what he means by "mesmerized by bad men" is the unhealthy coping mechanism of an adult sexual abuse survivor identifying with their abuser to such an extent they actually seek out those type of partners.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (173630)
Message 173679 (In Reply to Message 173630)
Posted by Quest
on Feb 23, 2006 10:48 PM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
I'll have to repond to this privately. This mesmerize thing is really bothering me and it's not just one of my intellectual spins.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (173630)
Message 173713 (In Reply to Message 173653)
Posted by Quest
on Feb 24, 2006 04:21 PM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
iI think this goes back to young women coming of age that I mentioned above somewhere. Women and men use the skills they have to get together as mates. There is a very strong impulse to do this even for survivors. It's the question of who do you trust.
How can you tell who the bad guys are and how do you not get hurt when you finally get on with the business of trying to fall in love.
Humans are best at fooling each other. There is a study at some university that is dealing with the problem of men thinking that a women smiling at them means they want sex. Men have a stupid bone that makes them sure that every woman who is nice to them wants them. It's a biological fact. I call this magical thinking. This whole thing with men has some connection to anger and agression. Some men are very good at the aggression part of this and they are predatory more so than others. Some of these men are damned good at fooling women.
I think survivors of rape have a strong need to be re-validated and to trust again. They are internally confused at why some men who smile at them then turn into monsters at the first vulnerable moment.
The fact that these men exist and will advertise themselves in a false way is the problem. They also are very good at finding women with a strong need for validation. The predator/victim pair are likely to find each other in a crowded room. Often.
The reason that I keep getting into the same relationship with verbally abusive women over and over is because I look for the opposite of the bad relationship I just came out of. The women I am interested in are advertising themselves as being very non-abusive because in past relationships they were accused of it. Anyone that seems overly eager to build up my ego is precisely the kind of woman I need to be suspicious of.
But it is much easier said than done. I have a strong need to have women build up my ego so I will gravitate to these women. My solution is to hide in the basement until I get over my neediness and to be extremely cautious. I have to understand my vulnerability and live accordingly.
This needs to be talked about with survivors. Most significantly with the young ones who are still reeling from the shock of adolescence and childhood abuse.
This is hard to talk about because get upset at the idea that a victim did some things that led to other things that put them in a room with a rapist. We are so jaded by the whole 'she asked for it' thing that we are afraid to talk about these issues.
Over and over we have to be clear that rape does not happen unless a rapist wills it to happen. I have to repeat this in every post. Trust and and wanting to be validated as a healthy human is not the crime. Wearing makeup and dressing up is not the crime. Rapists do the crime, no one else.
This becomes repetitive fast. Can someone else say this better? We don't want women in middle eastern head-dress. We want women to be free and yet cautious enough to be safe.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (173653)
Thread
173177, Quest, Feb 12, 2006 09:09 PM
173202, june5, Feb 13, 2006 03:17 AM
173281, Quest, Feb 15, 2006 01:15 AM
173282, Quest, Feb 15, 2006 01:23 AM
173338, cass117, Feb 18, 2006 02:54 AM [i will take it on]
173346, june5, Feb 18, 2006 03:36 AM [Quest]
173360, Valerie, Feb 18, 2006 06:05 PM
173226, cass117, Feb 13, 2006 09:21 PM
173348, Quest, Feb 18, 2006 05:07 AM
173390, june5, Feb 19, 2006 02:40 AM [Quest]
173583, Quest, Feb 21, 2006 07:02 PM
173392, cass117, Feb 19, 2006 02:42 AM [thankyou for the response]
173493, rebel51, Feb 20, 2006 01:39 PM
173585, Quest, Feb 21, 2006 07:32 PM
173630, june5, Feb 23, 2006 05:05 AM [Sigh]
173653, meli, Feb 23, 2006 06:18 PM
173713, Quest, Feb 24, 2006 04:21 PM
173679, Quest, Feb 23, 2006 10:48 PM
Forum Home
| Top of Thread
|
|
|
