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Forum: Victims and Survivors Corner
Thread (Discussion): For those who have been thru the system?
Message 171682
Posted by Valerie
on Jan 20, 2006 03:36 PM | Also by Valerie
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: 30 - 39,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
I am curious about one poster Forgive, I think her name is, but any and all may answer....once going thru the system with an acquaintance, husband, brother or loved one who was convicted, are you sorry that the judicial process was ever involved? Either for the overkill or the underkill so to speak of the consequences? and if it was a spouse or close family member, can you ever honestly look at that person again and trust them to keep healthy boundaries? Or do you think it will always be in the forefront of your mind? Someone might want to jump in, if my wording of this question is too vague...thanks..
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Message 171715 (In Reply to Message 171682)
Posted by forgive
on Jan 20, 2006 10:13 PM | Also by forgive
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: 30 - 39,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
I will be glad to respond to your good questions.I am not sorry that the judicial system was in place and "took over" as was in our case. I say "our" because I am the mother, my daughter is the victor. We have gone through this together all the way-she does NOT choose the word victim to be suitable for her..Her thoughts., not mine, and I am so proud of her for taking this attitude. No overkill , no under kill. I have no complaints about the system until they started messing with the laws to "protect" the public , like the 2000 ft laws. (What a bunch of hooey). The system is what forced my husband into group therapy and caused him to come to grips with his crime, and the thinking errors that are so rampant with SO's. But, make no mistake about it, GOD is the only reason we have survived and come out on this end, healthy and healing. GOD and forgiveness, not because he asked to be forgiven- but because to NOT forgive means giving him, my husband, the power to control me, and my emotions. . . . NO thanks- Yes, Val, I am always cautious, but not paranoid. To forgive , does NOT mean to forget. That would be foolish. Thank you for asking. One more thought- our "system" here includes a female counselor for group therapy. This is SO wrong. They have NO business counseling and listening to men talk about their offenses , and the offenders who are in the groups are not nearly as open as they are when there is a male leading.(this last thought in regards to the "system" and how it works.)
That about does it this time-
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Message 171725 (In Reply to Message 171715)
forgive
Posted by dp1
on Jan 21, 2006 02:00 AM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
They have NO business counseling and listening to men talk about their offenses , and the offenders who are in the groups are not nearly as open as they are when there is a male leading.
Your opinion about female therapists is quite unique. I wonder how many female therapists you've been in contact with. Do you think it's possible it was an isolated incident? I haven't met a male offender who didn't appreciate their female therapists at least in my area. It's been my experience that most offenders have a preference for a therapist with experience and professionalism. Their gender isn't usually an issue. I'm a little taken back by your sexist position in regards to professionals in the field.
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Message 171740 (In Reply to Message 171725)
Posted by forgive
on Jan 21, 2006 07:43 AM | Also by forgive
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
my post probably sounded harsh. You are quite right, my personal experience has been with a limited number of female counselors, and I come from an unusual, I think, combination of experiences. First , I work in a male prison. I am a female. I work with many male sex offenders, not in the therapy area, however many come to my area and unload, yes, because I am a professional and have some experience.. I am also the mother of a daughter who has been molested and the offender is my husband. I have been to therapy with his group, and I observed the men to be respectful of the female counselor, but quite different when she was unable to be there. I believe I saw more real talking and emotions when she was NOT present. However, I do believe there are times when females are helpful , and show the offenders a different way to look at things. I cannot embrace the idea that there are not differences between the sexes, even though I work for the "state". Sorry- men are visual, women are more emotional . I am surprised that you feel reality is sexist.
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Message 171798 (In Reply to Message 171740)
Posted by dp1
on Jan 21, 2006 04:39 PM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
Of course there are differences between the sexes. Part of therapy for most male offenders is learning how to respect women and children. The problem I see with male professionals is that because they are male they never see first hand how disrespectful some of these male offenders are. Women pick up on it and try to correct the behavior immediately. What can be better than that? As a female professional I also pick up on boundary issues, abuse issues, etc... far more quickly than my male counterparts. It's not a good thing if the bad behaviors are not detected or incorrect thinking isn't addressed. If you find that the males are not talking or opening up as much with the females then I'd start looking for another female who can do the job. I'm female and can't shut my guys up....it's all about trust, respect and communication skills. Either you got it or you don't. A degree doesn't do a darn thing for people skills IMO.
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Message 171800 (In Reply to Message 171740)
Forgive
Posted by dp1
on Jan 21, 2006 04:48 PM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
What capacity do you work in at the prison? If you can't answer this I understand, I'm just trying to focus on your perspective.
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Message 171830 (In Reply to Message 171740)
Posted by Valerie
on Jan 22, 2006 12:14 AM | Also by Valerie
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
Forgive, if I may be so bold, did you meet your husband in prison? and since you made mention you work in one, you obviously are more privy to the hardships and repercussions of what people face when leaving prison, were you prepared to face these issues and live them day to day?and if I may ask you one more thing? If you did not work in a prison and develope the empathy that you have for some of the people there, do you think you would have gotten involved with someone with a criminal history, keep in mind I am presuming you met your husband there, but I could be wrong..
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Message 171947 (In Reply to Message 171740)
Posted by Quest
on Jan 23, 2006 11:54 PM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
Some people think it sexist to point out brain differences. Like they dont exist. The hypothalamus of a male is over 2 times as big as a female and the corpus collosum that connects the two halves of the brain is MUCH larger in females. There are wires and hormones in those things. Should not surprise people that we think a little bit differently.
That said I think we error in the other direction. Males are extremely emotional and romantic and the females I have had as bosses seem to be more logical and less prone to stupid territorial arguments.
I agree with you that men need to tend men and women need to tend the girls. Gender crossing in sexual issues is often inapropriate. My biggest peeve is male cops interviewing rape victims. I have a friend who went through a lot of trauma over this.
Another is female reporters in locker rooms of pro sports. Just irritates me that we have to pretend that gender doesn't exist.
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Message 171965 (In Reply to Message 171947)
Posted by Valerie
on Jan 24, 2006 03:05 AM | Also by Valerie
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
Quest no offense here but what size the brain matter is...is something us women know alot about...thats not the answer...its living day to day with the brain matter I asked about...
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Message 171973 (In Reply to Message 171947)
Posted by june5
on Jan 24, 2006 03:43 AM | Also by june5
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
This is in regard to the "sexist" discussion: My husband's PO is a very attractive, very voluptuous woman. I said to him after meeting her, "wow, I can't believe they would put a woman like that in charge of SO's." My husband stated that he thinks it is a good idea, because if her probationers can't control themselves around her, it will become clear whether they are still having problems with women or are making progress. I thought that was an interesting way of looking at it.
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Message 171991 (In Reply to Message 171947)
Posted by dp1
on Jan 24, 2006 04:58 AM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
Most sex offeder therapists I deal with are females. Few offenders I know have a preference for a male therapist. I have noticed though that the male offenders who prefer male therapists have not been molested/raped by a man as a child. Deciding on whether to get a male or female therapist is a very personal thing for obvious reasons. To say that it's not appropriate to cross gender is by far one of the most ignorant statements I've read in these forums is a while. Get with the times folks.
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Message 172012 (In Reply to Message 171973)
Posted by Quest
on Jan 24, 2006 05:44 PM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
Ah Yes. The bait.
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Message 172013 (In Reply to Message 171991)
Posted by Quest
on Jan 24, 2006 05:45 PM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
I'm trying to get unwith the times and back to before we started listening to 'modern' psychology witch-doctor BS.
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Message 172014 (In Reply to Message 171991)
Posted by Quest
on Jan 24, 2006 05:48 PM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
For my own therapy Ihave always sought out women except for one exceptional man named Robert because while men are emotional driven they seldom have a clue about what those emotions are all about.
If I had a reason for sex therapy however, I would seek out a man to avoid the obvious misunderstandings women have about male sexuality.
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Message 172098 (In Reply to Message 171973)
June
Posted by dp1
on Jan 25, 2006 03:45 PM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
Being attractive certainly makes for a more complex issue when dealing with males in a professional capacity. However, the truth to the matter is that men who abuse women or children are not after their looks. I've seen very unattractive females have difficulties with sexist offenders. Females are far more sensitive to these very important issues IMO and can communicate more effectively than most of their male counterparts.
The important issue really is safety. If I just so happen to be the best looking red headed female PO who is by far the most skilled at working with sex offenders would it be a wise choice to assign me a case who is a male rapist paroled after serving 20 years for raping 6 red headed female law enforcement officers? I think not.
Regardless of the professional's gender it's my opinion that the professional should choose mentors of the opposite sex, race and viewpoints to stay balanced and well informed. Although I agree partially with Quest's stance regarding same gender interaction with sex offenders in regards to understanding male sexuality, I also would be cautious of male professionals who tend to sympathize just a tad too much. Males are far more vulnerable in this regard and I hope to God they seek female mentoring.
I wish I can remember which thread in the general forum in regards to the debates with Valerie and Eagle, but let's be honest. How many of us see their issues as a sexist issue? Is Eagle a professional? Sure he is. Does he do a great job? I have no reason to doubt it. Could he benefit from female mentoring? Of course. All he'd have to do is lower the testosterone a notch and verbalize a little better by addressing vulnerable situations. In my heart I don't really believe he is blaming mothers. I think he's pointing out possible targets. I could be wrong, but because he's a male I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt here. (hehhe)
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Message 172110 (In Reply to Message 172014)
quest
Posted by dp1
on Jan 25, 2006 04:29 PM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
It's comforting to know that a therapist can understand, sympathize and empathize with a patient's situation, but it may not always be the healthiest choice. That's all I am saying. Please don't assume I think all male professionals are sexists and are easy on sex crimes. I know that is not the case, but the situation does exist. And realistically, some men are actually harder on male offenders than their female counterparts would be. It really is a tough balance. Recognizing the hard task at hand is the key IMO.
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Message 172111 (In Reply to Message 171947)
quest
Posted by dp1
on Jan 25, 2006 04:34 PM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
Just irritates me that we have to pretend that gender doesn't exist.
That isn't the case at all. You are suggesting that we totally ignor sexist issues. I am saying we need to deal with it up front and center. Why? Because sexist attitudes are most definately an issue sex offenders need to deal with. It's been my experience that when it's a male on male situation the sexist issues are ignored. That's not a good thing.
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Message 172134 (In Reply to Message 172111)
Posted by Quest
on Jan 25, 2006 06:35 PM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
Maybe a mix of genders for therapists would be better. My hope is that a male therapist would have dealt with his 'inner sexist pig' before becoming a professional. Women are capable of calling them on the behavior but I think they would be incapable of rooting out all of the nuances and identifying with the patient.
You see I don't believe sexist is learned behavior. It is built-in. What is learned is what you do about it in your life. How you choose to act in spite of certain feelings and prejudice.
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Message 172184 (In Reply to Message 172134)
male therapists
Posted by cass117
on Jan 26, 2006 02:43 PM | Also by cass117
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: North Carolina,
Country: United States |
my hubby had a male therapist who specifically dealt w/sex crimes and sexual abuse,he was very direct (no excuses for crime)yet very supporting when my husband talked of his past sexual abuse .i remember thinking what an amazing therapist he was. when we were seen together he would bring up me being supportive and not doing things for him .he told him when he was making progress and told him when he was evasive" thats fine its your life on the line" all im saying is that there are male and female therapists out there who do an amazing job ,i was very surprised however how hard it was to find them.
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Message 172209 (In Reply to Message 172184)
Posted by Quest
on Jan 26, 2006 10:11 PM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
I'm surprised how hard it is to find good ones but mostly that makes me afraid for the abused and the abuser alike.
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Message 172392 (In Reply to Message 171830)
Posted by forgive
on Jan 29, 2006 08:30 PM | Also by forgive
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
in reply to Valerie-
No, I never mind anyone asking- and no, I did not meet my husband in prison. He did not become a sex offender until after I had worked at the prison for 6 years. I do not in any way condone any of his actions, and yes, I did perhaps increase my empathy for all offenders when I "walked a mile" with him in his shoes, during the post hearing therapy and treatment. I do not think they need to be treated with any more disrespect that the public is willing to treat any offender. Meth, or OWI, or burglary. . . We are only so quick to go there as we believe we are all better than they are. WRONG- we all do things wrong. It is called sin and God does not judge one sin any more harshly than another. Only man does that. And Valerie, I would not get involved with someone I was working with and still have my job. AND I might add, many of the staff I work with, have just as bad of behavior as the inmates. They have not been caught yet.
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Message 172394 (In Reply to Message 171991)
to 171991
Posted by forgive
on Jan 29, 2006 08:45 PM | Also by forgive
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
I am sorry you feel this way.
Most offenders do not have a choice as to which gender their therapist will be- not around here! They are assigned.
I am by no means ignorant and would be happy to explain where my opinion comes from if you are at all interested. Unfortunately , "getting with the times", is far more counteproductive than you know. We have not come to this place in this world by sticking to the standarde that the country was founded on, namely God. Things have not improved !! Morals and values have all gone down the toilet, as people continue to make choices that are harmful for them and others. . Would you say that the divorce rates, suicide rates, drug problems, drinking problems, unwed mothers, are a wonderful , keeping up with the times " type of thinking??
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Message 172401 (In Reply to Message 172394)
forgive
Posted by dp1
on Jan 30, 2006 02:16 AM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
Maybe getting with the times in your neck of the woods might entail giving the patient the freedom to select his own treatment provider.
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Message 172456 (In Reply to Message 172394)
Posted by Valerie
on Jan 31, 2006 03:31 PM | Also by Valerie
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
Thanks or your response Forgive, I am not sure if you noticed or not but the over-riding theme on this board seems to be comparisons of sex crimes to other problems. Kinda like pointing out we have other misfortunes in our society and perhaps we should focus on those. Unfortunately many people can only pick a few battles at a time...I beg to differ with your opinion that morals and values have flushed down the toilet, perhaps in many ways they have for some...but the goal is for persons even one at a time to maintain values that they can be proud of and pass on to their children. Maybe it will be the "last man standing" scenario that God is looking for. Who knows, and I feel for you that the majority of people you work with, may have the ethics of an alley rat...I dont work with people like that...I genuinely have a high regard for many of the people I surround myself with...
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Message 172487 (In Reply to Message 172456)
Posted by forgive
on Feb 01, 2006 12:20 AM | Also by forgive
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
Valerie, I need to explain something I think you and others may have misunderstood.. While I most certainly do not condone any sex offense, it is my intention to gently bring to reality that those who make this "hate the sexoffender" thing an energy taking ,time taking, way of life, with little regard for other "crimes" as you will, which are so rampantly going on around them, that perhaps, we need to look at society from the mountaintop instead of through the peephole in the fence.
I find that people who choose to engage themselves in a conversation with me about sex offenses come away more knowledgeable and understanding with a little different perspective- isn't that what this board is about?
You wrote-"Maybe it will be the last man standing scenario that God is looking for?"I am not sure what you mean. The Bible says that narrow is the way to heaven , and broad is the path to destruction. Not my words, His.
I did not believe at first , that I was working with so many
"precaught "sex offenders , drivers who drink- uh huh- bet you know and work with some too, and people who try to cheat on their work time, by finding ways to be lazy, and on their taxes by inventing things that are not true to save a buck.
either.
I needed a reality check . Got one. If you are surrounded by morallly upright non-offending people good for you.
Who is the judge of all this? certainly not you , certainly not I. Who are you, or who am I to say that any crime is more or less sinful than any other? We all create our own situational ethics and morals, (unless of course we try to live by God's word), and I find that most people do not have a strong sense of choosing to implement doing the right thing at ALL times. That is because we are choosing to try to make our society accept our own agendas and trying to be ever so politically correct in our thinking. Bull. Won't work, can't happen, because truth is truth- not ours but God's. He wins.
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Message 172488 (In Reply to Message 172401)
Posted by forgive
on Feb 01, 2006 12:30 AM | Also by forgive
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
I might agree with you dp1, except for one thing- most offenders have not made good decisions all along in regards to what is GOOD for them and what is not. Freedom to decide ? Seems kinda silly that that would come into question when you cannot even agree where these people should live, with whom , etc? Isn't that why you guys are trying to control their lives? because you do not trust them to make good decisions?Because they have shown the world they cannot make any good decisions? I believe we call it "thinking errors". Perhaps we are admitting that inspite of the "good "therapy they receive, that they may not actually be cured or trustworthy, and that perhaps we don't have all the answers? Ponder.
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Message 172500 (In Reply to Message 172488)
Posted by dp1
on Feb 01, 2006 02:18 PM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
I remember those days Forgive. Now in later years there's choice of one's practioner as long as the therapist has the proper qualifications. It was a long time coming and the healthy competition among the sex offender programs has improved the quality and kept the costs down. Surely, you can appreciate getting a second opinion from a specialist or being able to price shop. Therapists who work on the inside are not considered the cream of the crop where I'm from. Natural selection through competition in the private sector weeded them out. The Jimmy Ryce Facility is a perfect example. Any decent phsychologist won't be caught dead 2,000 feet from Arcadia and for good reason.
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Message 172505 (In Reply to Message 172487)
Posted by Quest
on Feb 01, 2006 04:33 PM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
That was very well done. I cringe when I hear the words god and country together however. I am staunchly leaned away from Christianity.
But in a long life of deriving the nature of man and morality for my self and my children, I have come to the very same conclusions as most good Christians.
Whether morals arise from the evolution of man, or God, or God's designing evolution, makes little difference to the results I perceive.
Two things strike me about sex offenders and sex offender haters. One is that the hatred sounds a great deal like the sort of rot that drives one to offend sexually. I started out on the victim's side but never seem to get around to solutions because I'm too busy trying to calm down the group I wanted to help and defending offenders against god-like people who judge and talk of torture and prisoners getting it up the butt in general prison population.
The second thing is something I have never been able to explain well. It is that the non-sex offender who toys with adultery at local strip clubs or commits adultery or beats his wife is not operating from principles that are any better than the ones who molest children. In fact I believe they are the same principles. The solution to the problem of child sexual abuse is firmly tied with the generally accepted lack of morality among males in particular and females in growing numbers.
We have only erected a false and contradictory barrier in the magic number of 18 years old. It's as if this is the last moral bastion. The only line we will not cross is a state ordained line involving the number of years separating people who have sex. We have gone a little bit nuts about it becasue we seem to have no other place left to put our moral outrage.
The problem and the tradgedy of childsexual abuse is real. But defending the 18 line has watered it down and misdirected the search for root causes. This thinking has allowed us to turn a blind eye to all sorts of abuse and misuse of our sexuality. Putting people firmly on one side or the other of "God's Chosen".
This appalls me because I suspect that a rapist with adult victims could suddenly become a hero if he stabbed to death a child molester while behind bars.
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Message 172509 (In Reply to Message 172487)
Posted by Valerie
on Feb 01, 2006 06:47 PM | Also by Valerie
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
Well until God comes down and determines what laws we should all live by, I guess we will have to abide by some of "mans"..
Whadya think?
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Message 172868 (In Reply to Message 172509)
Posted by rebel51
on Feb 08, 2006 07:28 AM | Also by rebel51
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: California,
Country: United States |
The way that I understood it was that we were supposed to obey God's law AND mans laws.
Thou shalt not kill---murder
Thou shalt not steal---Theft
Most of God's laws are morality based so the laws of Godlaw vs manlaw dont really apply. I do believe that God stated in the Bible that we are to follow both, His laws and the "laws of the land".
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Thread
171682, Valerie, Jan 20, 2006 03:36 PM
171715, forgive, Jan 20, 2006 10:13 PM
171725, dp1, Jan 21, 2006 02:00 AM [forgive]
171740, forgive, Jan 21, 2006 07:43 AM
171798, dp1, Jan 21, 2006 04:39 PM
171800, dp1, Jan 21, 2006 04:48 PM [Forgive]
171830, Valerie, Jan 22, 2006 12:14 AM
172392, forgive, Jan 29, 2006 08:30 PM
171947, Quest, Jan 23, 2006 11:54 PM
171965, Valerie, Jan 24, 2006 03:05 AM
171973, june5, Jan 24, 2006 03:43 AM
172012, Quest, Jan 24, 2006 05:44 PM
172098, dp1, Jan 25, 2006 03:45 PM [June]
171991, dp1, Jan 24, 2006 04:58 AM
172013, Quest, Jan 24, 2006 05:45 PM
172014, Quest, Jan 24, 2006 05:48 PM
172110, dp1, Jan 25, 2006 04:29 PM [quest]
172394, forgive, Jan 29, 2006 08:45 PM [to 171991]
172401, dp1, Jan 30, 2006 02:16 AM [forgive]
172488, forgive, Feb 01, 2006 12:30 AM
172500, dp1, Feb 01, 2006 02:18 PM
172456, Valerie, Jan 31, 2006 03:31 PM
172487, forgive, Feb 01, 2006 12:20 AM
172505, Quest, Feb 01, 2006 04:33 PM
172509, Valerie, Feb 01, 2006 06:47 PM
172868, rebel51, Feb 08, 2006 07:28 AM
172111, dp1, Jan 25, 2006 04:34 PM [quest]
172134, Quest, Jan 25, 2006 06:35 PM
172184, cass117, Jan 26, 2006 02:43 PM [male therapists]
172209, Quest, Jan 26, 2006 10:11 PM
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