|
|
Forum: Victims and Survivors Corner
Thread (Discussion): cnn, nancy grace... - PVulcan
Message 170085
did anyone see it tonight?
Posted by anti
on Dec 28, 2005 03:38 AM | Also by anti
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
did anyone see the the n grace deal tonight?
had pedo goldenflame, ohh I hate that name, loll there, and a few more....
not bad...
anti
Forum Home
| Top of Thread
Message 170116 (In Reply to Message 170085)
Posted by Valerie
on Dec 28, 2005 04:49 PM | Also by Valerie
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
Yea I watched every bit of it...ole Jake didnt utilize his normol cool on that one at all. thought the Bob guy did good, but he was very rehearsed. I dont particularly like Nancy Grace I think she's animated and full of drama...my guy loves her...the theapist Bill Ford did a great job dont you think?
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170085)
Message 170128 (In Reply to Message 170116)
val
Posted by anti
on Dec 28, 2005 06:46 PM | Also by anti
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
lol yes n grace is soo animated, but I think alot of pros. actually are if you think about it, but maybe thats why I watch her, loll flame was a fool, the other guy yea not much better....
the show could haved been better, odd how g flame walked out, lol says alot for him.
anti
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170116)
Message 170171 (In Reply to Message 170128)
Posted by Valerie
on Dec 29, 2005 12:39 PM | Also by Valerie
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
actually I was very disappointed in him, at one time I thought he was a good spokesperson for sex offenders, he was articulate and patient in all his interviews and actually had some valuable information for the audience's he was addressing, I know Orolan never thought much of him and probably a few others, but I actually was very surprized he lost his cool ....bottom line is he didnt do a thing for any sex offender argument and may actually have hurt and set back any valid issues an offender may have..
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170128)
Message 170217 (In Reply to Message 170171)
Posted by Quest
on Dec 29, 2005 05:57 PM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
We don't know what Nancy Face did to jake off air. You could tell that he knew where she was leading him and refused to go there. I've seen this kind of thing many times on her show. She makes an agreement witht the guests about what to ask them and then she violates it on air. If the guest walks off she wins anyway.
But I don't like Jake at all. Anyone read his book?
The most interesting part of the show was the guest that said victims are rquired to go to counciling with the offenders.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170171)
Message 170227 (In Reply to Message 170217)
Posted by PVulcan
on Dec 29, 2005 08:13 PM | Also by PVulcan
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
I didn't see the show. Are you saying that you think it's a good idea that a victim would go into counselling with their offender? Just trying to clarify.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170217)
Message 170247 (In Reply to Message 170227)
Posted by Quest
on Dec 30, 2005 03:27 AM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
Sometimes it can be a good idea. Sometimes it is the stupidest thing you could ever do. It depends.
What it depends on is the wishes of the victim. Not on the perceived need of the victim but on what the victim wants.
In one case we have a young girl who loves her father and her father is swirling down an alcoholic hellhole and making some disturbing advances. Say mom died last year. The girl is dying to talk and tells her best friends who reports it. Six cop cars show up that night red lights sirens blasting and the girl loses the remainder of what she knows to be her life.
Another case you have a bullying wife and childbeating man who has molested his daughter since her memory started. The state forces her to sit down with him in counciling and she knows he's going to get her for this.
This whole thing is about VICTIMS. They know what is right for them. What they can handle. The first call after child sexual abuse comes to light needs to be to a lawyer for the victim and the second to a confidential counselor with some experience and no axe to grind. The three of them make the ground rules for what happens next. No one else has the right to do this. From that moment on the child should never be without legal and psychological council.
Child sexual abuse turns a kids world upside down. The state then takes that world and shakes it like a rattle until the pieces fall out. People with agendas and looks of pity rape the raped over and over.
Victims rights.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170227)
Message 170276 (In Reply to Message 170247)
Posted by PVulcan
on Dec 30, 2005 06:29 PM | Also by PVulcan
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
So you're saying a child victim, say 7 y.o, is capable of making these types of decisions? I don't think so. This is frightening. Is this a common occurance in your state? You do not have a 'child protocol' in your county/state?
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170247)
Message 170293 (In Reply to Message 170276)
here we go again
Posted by Quest
on Dec 30, 2005 11:06 PM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
So you're saying a child victim, say 7 y.o, is capable of making these types of decisions?
Why didn't you use a 12 or 13 or 17 year old as an example?
This whole subject is stricken with those gradients of age and the two sides sit here and bounce between extremes to make the other poster sound like a freak. Enough!
If a seven year old is too young to make those decisions for herself then that is all the more reason that they need to have their own legal representation and advocates. I'm suggesting a significant departure from the norm in our legal system. Appointed and mandated council for victims. Isn't it time we quit pretending that we care about victims and actually hand them the reins?
So what if the seven year old doesn't want prosecution. So be it. Along with the law to require council we can add a statute of limitations hold. If the crime is noted then the victim has the right to pursue civil or criminal action until they are 21 or until say 10 years after the crime whichever is later.
If a 7 year old is vulnerable and easily taken advantage of then how can you claim that the 7 year old will not be influenced to prosecute by the lawyer and advocate? Seems to me that the younger they are the easier this would be.
The point is that the victims need to feel secure that they have some control. They have been overpowered now they need to be empowered.
Why is legal council for children such a forbidden item for people on this side of the fence. I just don't get this.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170276)
Message 170303 (In Reply to Message 170293)
Posted by steve
on Dec 31, 2005 12:11 AM | Also by steve
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Virginia,
Country: United States |
So what if the seven year old doesn't want prosecution. So be it. Along with the law to require council we can add a statute of limitations hold. If the crime is noted then the victim has the right to pursue civil or criminal action until they are 21 or until say 10 years after the crime whichever is later.
This might be a good topic for the General forum.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170293)
Message 170304 (In Reply to Message 170293)
Posted by PVulcan
on Dec 31, 2005 12:35 AM | Also by PVulcan
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
First of all, victims of any age do not CHOOSE whether a case gets charged or not. It's the state. Second of all, once a disclosure is made by a child proper steps should be taken, hence a 'protocol, which most county/states have. You don't actually work in this field do you. You're a researcher?
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170293)
Message 170343 (In Reply to Message 170304)
Posted by Quest
on Dec 31, 2005 04:11 PM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
Researcher. Amateur many would say but I can hold my own with biochemists and neuroscientists.
Victims can choose what they tell the state and they frequently make choices about what to not say as a witness. I have no idea where to find the protocol for the state of MN if there is such a thing.
Look at it like this. Police arrive at the scene of a alcohol related car crash and a little girl is lying in a pool of blood with her leg obviously broken and a head wound.
Do the police officers grab the child by legs and arms , toss her in the patrol car and give her to a detective for interogation?
No. They wait for the 'first responders' and medical professionals to minimize the damage and secure the health of the victim first. The police have to wait.
Why do they have to wait when we have a perp here that we must put away? Pretty obvious why.
Child sexual abuse is like get a bad burn. It keeps burning and damaging tissue long after the heat is removed.
I'm suggesting 'first responders' for sex abuse victims. And actually I am suggesting going a little further than that to prevent more damage.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170304)
Message 170366 (In Reply to Message 170343)
Posted by PVulcan
on Dec 31, 2005 08:43 PM | Also by PVulcan
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
You could call your Prosecuting Atty office to find out about the protocol, or I'm sure you have a division of a hospital that is specific to child abuse. You could also call CPS or any school should also have a copy of it. I'll check and see if one exists in your state, I'm betting a dollar to a donut that it does. There are first responders in place for child disclosures.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170343)
Message 170372 (In Reply to Message 170366)
Posted by Quest
on Jan 01, 2006 01:32 AM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
Thanks. I will search myself. I'm very concerned about this.
I know it's jsut tv but I watched an episode of Law and Order where a little girl was scared to death of males and they had a male detective go in on her rape exam. In the show they wrote it out so that she started to trust him.
In reality if a little girl is raped I would be inclined to do physical harm to any male that went anywhere near her in relationship to the rape case. If a male even looked at an evidence picture I would want to kill him.
But that's my feeling. It's gotta be up to the child.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170366)
Message 170402 (In Reply to Message 170372)
quest
Posted by PVulcan
on Jan 01, 2006 07:59 PM | Also by PVulcan
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
Your input in this section of the forum is frightening. You have absolutely no clue.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170372)
Message 170403 (In Reply to Message 170372)
Posted by PVulcan
on Jan 01, 2006 08:40 PM | Also by PVulcan
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
Ok I've calmed down about your 'notions'. Frist of all, victims have the right to say who will be in the room with them during a rape kit. Not just anyone can sit in and watch that procedure. Hopefully it will be a SANE (Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner) doing the rape kit, as they are forensic nurses as opposed to a rape kit being done in ER. In ER dr's and nurses deal with emergent cases as they happen and often will leave the examining room, leaving evidence on counters etc, which any defense attorney would say had been contaminated, or altered by anyone that was in the room.
Doctors are males and females. Cops are males and females. Your response of wanting to 'kill someone' isn't coming as a professional, that is a typical male response, as in Dad, brother, husband because someone has harmed someone you love.
For child rape kits, the procedure is different from adult victims. I'll be here all day long typing out that procedure. If you're truly interested in finding out the facts of NON tv situations I would suggest you get involved within your community and find out how things are truly done as it relates to child victims.
Minnesota has Coalition of Sexual Assault Programs, might be a great place to start for you.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170372)
Message 170412 (In Reply to Message 170402)
Posted by Quest
on Jan 01, 2006 10:16 PM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
I know that this is always frightening to victim advocates. What I need to know is exactly what are you frightened about?
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170402)
Message 170413 (In Reply to Message 170403)
Posted by Quest
on Jan 01, 2006 10:20 PM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
What you are saying is that each community or state is given free reign in establishing these procedures?
I'm saying that we need constitutional amendment for victims and constitutional amendment for children to ensure their rights and to set in stone an obligation for society to explain and emphasize those rights as soon as a child is old enough to hear.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170403)
Message 170414 (In Reply to Message 170403)
Posted by Quest
on Jan 01, 2006 10:31 PM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
You are right about the typical male response. Unfortunately it's human too. In many tribal societies and most modern ones the men know when to leave the room and let women tend to women.
We can pretend that there is no difference in a victims response to a doctor or cop based on gender but it simply is not true.
Someone in another thread on LE mentioned something like 12% of new sex crime cases are offenders who work in LE. Male cops and male doctors cannot separate their own human tendencies from these areas.
You are saying that it is wrong for fathers and brothers to feel outraged when they are the ones most likely to defend the victims? This isn't temporary insanity they are feeling it's the core requirement of a just and free society to protect every child as our own.
Any law that pretends to eliminate gender from sexuality is fatally flawed and will endanger the mental health of all involved. I know that is not a popular contemporary idea. That's what frightens me.
But even more frightening to me is how I get shut down when I bring up constituional changes to strengthen a victims position in determining their fate.
I have been searching the web for MN's procedures but will have to wait till a workday to call them.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170403)
Message 170425 (In Reply to Message 170412)
Posted by PVulcan
on Jan 02, 2006 07:04 AM | Also by PVulcan
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
What's frightening is that people that really have no clue about this come into this forum and pretend like they do. There is possibly parents of victims that read this, or are victims themselves and become terrified, thinking that should they come forward they'll be circled like a wagon train will all kinds of people watching this procedure. You simply could not be more wrong.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170412)
Message 170426 (In Reply to Message 170413)
Posted by PVulcan
on Jan 02, 2006 07:06 AM | Also by PVulcan
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
Good lord!!!! Victims do have rights. As a researcher, you aren't very thorough! This is what I'm talking about, you're carrying on about things you know know nothing about.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170413)
Message 170459 (In Reply to Message 170426)
Posted by Quest
on Jan 02, 2006 07:14 PM | Also by Quest
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Minnesota,
Country: United States |
I certainly don't want to frighten parents or step-parents unless they are the ones sexually abusing their kids. Maybe that's rare?
I am not a legal researcher. I hope you can steer me in the right direction.
I am not aware of any federal laws that require minor victims of sexual abuse to be apprised of their rights to council.
I am not aware of a mandate to spell out those rights to 6 yr olds when good touch/bad touch is taught to them in school. Rights aren't much good unless the child has heard of them.
Just tell me where these guidelines are and I will shut up. But please do so in a safer thread I just started on the general forum.
For any good parents I have scared just get an attorney for your child and then proceed.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170426)
Message 170464 (In Reply to Message 170459)
Posted by PVulcan
on Jan 02, 2006 09:02 PM | Also by PVulcan
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
You could check out OCVA Office of Crime Victims Advocacy for more information.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170459)
Message 170719 (In Reply to Message 170217)
quest and all
Posted by momhelpingbyherself
on Jan 06, 2006 03:27 PM | Also by momhelpingbyherself
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Kentucky,
Country: United States |
i missed this specific story. However, N Grace is a reporter. Bottom line. and quest, i think that they know that. she will ask them what she wants to know. bottom line. Are you there to hear any kind of arrangements that she has made with her quests before the show airs? Just because they may say they don't wish to discuss a certain issue, doesn't mean she won't bring it up in an attempt to try and get an answer. just my 2 cents
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170217)
Message 170720 (In Reply to Message 170247)
Posted by momhelpingbyherself
on Jan 06, 2006 03:34 PM | Also by momhelpingbyherself
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Kentucky,
Country: United States |
that would be the worse thing that could happen. especially right from the beginning. Maybe after the child has had therapy for some time. But not from the beginning. Get real, quest. The beginning of all this is the most difficult time for a victim, especially a child. i can't even believe that you think it would be good for a victim to be in therapy with the offender. Maybe stand up to an offender, not necessarily the one that hurt them, but not right from the beginning. That just shows how insensitive people are to victims.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170247)
Message 170721 (In Reply to Message 170276)
PVulcan
Posted by momhelpingbyherself
on Jan 06, 2006 03:35 PM | Also by momhelpingbyherself
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Kentucky,
Country: United States |
i agree with you. This is a alarming thought.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170276)
Message 170722 (In Reply to Message 170304)
Posted by momhelpingbyherself
on Jan 06, 2006 03:40 PM | Also by momhelpingbyherself
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Kentucky,
Country: United States |
Exactly,. authorities and or social services are contacted first, then they contact the other. in my daughters case. the state police were called by the city police since we live out of the cities jurisdiction, then the state police called child welfare department. who then put me in touch with a therapist for my daughter. Although at first it was sexual misconduct at first, the judge made the charge into sexual abuse in 3rd degree. which carried the same charge, because of the situation my daughter was in. I can't belive that anyone thinks that victims have a choice on if the case gets pressed in court or not, its not that way. it is the courts decision, and that is the sad part about it. there has to be certain requirements made in order to even get charges pressed, and that means that alot more cases are probably being throw out on some technicallity
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170304)
Message 170723 (In Reply to Message 170425)
PVulcan
Posted by momhelpingbyherself
on Jan 06, 2006 03:47 PM | Also by momhelpingbyherself
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Kentucky,
Country: United States |
Very well put, coming both from a victim and a family member of a victim.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (170425)
Thread
170085, anti, Dec 28, 2005 03:38 AM [did anyone see it tonight?]
170116, Valerie, Dec 28, 2005 04:49 PM
170128, anti, Dec 28, 2005 06:46 PM [val]
170171, Valerie, Dec 29, 2005 12:39 PM
170217, Quest, Dec 29, 2005 05:57 PM
170227, PVulcan, Dec 29, 2005 08:13 PM
170247, Quest, Dec 30, 2005 03:27 AM
170276, PVulcan, Dec 30, 2005 06:29 PM
170293, Quest, Dec 30, 2005 11:06 PM [here we go again]
170303, steve, Dec 31, 2005 12:11 AM
170304, PVulcan, Dec 31, 2005 12:35 AM
170343, Quest, Dec 31, 2005 04:11 PM
170366, PVulcan, Dec 31, 2005 08:43 PM
170372, Quest, Jan 01, 2006 01:32 AM
170402, PVulcan, Jan 01, 2006 07:59 PM [quest]
170412, Quest, Jan 01, 2006 10:16 PM
170425, PVulcan, Jan 02, 2006 07:04 AM
170723, momhelpingbyherself, Jan 06, 2006 03:47 PM [...]
170403, PVulcan, Jan 01, 2006 08:40 PM
170413, Quest, Jan 01, 2006 10:20 PM
170426, PVulcan, Jan 02, 2006 07:06 AM
170459, Quest, Jan 02, 2006 07:14 PM
170464, PVulcan, Jan 02, 2006 09:02 PM
170414, Quest, Jan 01, 2006 10:31 PM
170722, momhelpingbyherself, Jan 06, 2006 03:40 PM
170721, momhelpingbyherself, Jan 06, 2006 03:35 PM [PVulcan]
170720, momhelpingbyherself, Jan 06, 2006 03:34 PM
170719, momhelpingbyherself, Jan 06, 2006 03:27 PM [quest and all]
Forum Home
| Top of Thread
|
|
|
