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Forum: Old Message Board
Thread (Discussion): RE: Question? - RE: Question?
Message 117722
RE: Question?
Posted by x_LJ
on Oct 07, 2003 03:52 AM | Also by x_LJ
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Has there been any discussions here on the subject of whether some sex offenders who have done their time, gone through rehabilitation, and moved on in their lives to be considered as "anti's" also if they have really learned the hurtfulness of their crime(s), become a different person as a result, and have the perspective now of it being a horrible thing to do to someone else.
Those who have done damage in this area and face it squarely and honestly within themselves can become just as much against sexual crimes as those who haven't any inclination to act out in said manner. So, in a sense, the possibility does exist for anti's and offenders to be on the same side of the war against sex crimes--it was just different avenues that brought them to the same point of agreement.
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Message 117728 (In Reply to Message 117722)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_DP1
on Oct 07, 2003 09:08 AM | Also by x_DP1
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Thought provoking! I never thought of that possibility but anything's possible. My gut feeling is that a former sex offender having been rehabilitated would probably not be an extremist to the point of "pedo bashing" on the anti side of the fence. My reasoning would be that through therapy sex offenders learn to be empathetic (see and feel other peoples feelings) and would probably be more supportive than the average. This is why rehabilitated sex offenders can not become sex offender theripists (at least in my state) because support normally = enabling. However, a pedophile (in denial and acting out) would jump at the chance to be an Anti and present the extreme viewpoint to make it look like they are not guilty of anything (the facade). Any extreme viewpoint is suspect in my eyes.
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Message 117729 (In Reply to Message 117722)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_orolan
on Oct 07, 2003 09:20 AM | Also by x_orolan
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On the surface it sounds plausible. But after thinking about it, I'm not so sure.
I can't see a pedophile who fondled a child, without any actual or perceived damage to the child physically or mentally, becoming "anti" to the point of hating all other pedophiles. If that happens, they haven't truly come to terms with themselves. If they had, they would understand that while what they did was wrong, the cause of it was an illness that can't be cured, only controlled. So they would realize that other pedophiles need help and work to get it for them, rather than lash out in hatred and advocate that they all be executed, etc.
A "true" pedophile who actually does physical harm to a child while engaging in a sexual act would actually hate themselves more than anybody else. Keep in mind that "child molester" and "child rapist" are not the same as "pedophile". A pedophile loves children. They may also have a sexual attraction to them, but they still care about them, sometimes more than "normal" people. Harming the one thing they love most in life would devastate them.
So I can't see where an offender would become an "anti". They may become fully informed of the "wrongness" of their acts, but I think that realization will cause them to help their fellow offenders, not hate them.
IMHO.
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Message 117730 (In Reply to Message 117728)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_orolan
on Oct 07, 2003 09:23 AM | Also by x_orolan
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Pretty much the same as what I implied. Glad another agrees.
An offender who becomes extremely "anti" is not truly rehabilitated.
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Message 117734 (In Reply to Message 117722)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_anti
on Oct 07, 2003 10:37 AM | Also by x_anti
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yes, in a way true lj, but pleasee keep in mind as a anti, whom has talked to countless so(ex ones even, seriously), they do claim some of them to be so called anti, yet it has always happened, when it came right down to it, on alot of areas, they were not, simply because the did offend, and maybe even if they no longer were/are, they still have the mind of the so/pedo, whatever, as I talked to a man a few yrs back, who molested a few children, did a few yrs in prison, came out, and never, at least from what he said and to my knowledge re offended, yet on law issues, and esp on age of consent, he was still stuck in his old thoughts.
and eventually, even said a few times to me that he was wrong, but that he knew from seeing it in her eyes that his victim did like it, btw his victim was 4 yrs old.
anti
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Message 117735 (In Reply to Message 117728)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_anti
on Oct 07, 2003 10:39 AM | Also by x_anti
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dp1, yes!!!! you are totally right, I feel, actually through sources, have actually heard of a few to be exactly the way you speak of here, which makes great common sense.
ty, peace anti
ps how r u??
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Message 117736 (In Reply to Message 117729)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_anti
on Oct 07, 2003 10:44 AM | Also by x_anti
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orlan I actually agree with alot you have said here, but confused re how you speak of a true pedophile, re love for the child etc, yes of course the child rapist is quite different, yes, but the pedophile who has molested a child, any age, it if be age 1 yr up to age 6 yr, point is if that was a normal real love for the child, that pedo would haved never molested that child.
never.
a attraction is one thing, as sick as it is to have a attraction for a child, if you are a adult, is of course not as bad as actually the complete act.
I have talked to countless pedos who swear that even though a very very young child would be saying "it hurts, please stop", the continued, as in their mind really felt the child loved it.
as some rapist of adults feel, when the women says, stop, they continue as some feel she can say no, but yet is really enjoying it.
no is no, at any age.
anti
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Message 117740 (In Reply to Message 117722)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_Sisco
on Oct 07, 2003 11:34 AM | Also by x_Sisco
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I've only had a handful of convicted sex offenders switch sides. These individuals were truly remorseful for their actions. They have all since committed suicide.
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Message 117743 (In Reply to Message 117736)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_Steve
on Oct 07, 2003 12:28 PM | Also by x_Steve
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anti wrote:
> I have talked to countless pedos who swear that even though
> a very very young child would be saying "it hurts, please
> stop", the continued, as in their mind really felt the child
> loved it.
anti, that's sad. At a minimum such people need therapy since their view of reality is warped. Regardless of age differences someone engaged in a sexual act should stop if asked to. In my book whether the child consented is irrelevant since I believe a child (not talking about older teens) cannot give valid consent.
> as some rapist of adults feel, when the women says, stop,
> they continue as some feel she can say no, but yet is really
> enjoying it.
> no is no, at any age.
Right.
-Steve, SexCriminals.com
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Message 117751 (In Reply to Message 117728)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_Casey
on Oct 07, 2003 05:05 PM | Also by x_Casey
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"This is why rehabilitated sex offenders can not become sex offender theripists.."
Which makes no sense, for we have an insight no theripist could ever have. We would know if someone really was over their issues.
I would have to agree though I would never be a "basher," not of any kind. "anti" doesn't speak for all. Some are not that spasmatic. But because I lived it, I could never hate another sex offender. Of course this whole expierence has made me much more compassionate for all people. Espically misunderstood folks.
Nint times out of ten, society won't even take the time to listen. They listen to the first couple of words "I think about children sexually..." and the police are called. Sad.
Peace,
Casey
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Message 117752 (In Reply to Message 117729)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_Casey
on Oct 07, 2003 05:07 PM | Also by x_Casey
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"the cause of it was an illness that can't be cured, only controlled."
Another I feel incorrect statement.
Peace,
Casey
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Message 117753 (In Reply to Message 117736)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_Casey
on Oct 07, 2003 05:13 PM | Also by x_Casey
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"normal real love for the child, that pedo would haved never molested that child. never."
It is love that causes this issue in the first place anti.
"as sick as it is to have a attraction for a child..."
So you don't find your children, pleasing to look at? Or any child for that matter? Other people of all ages?
"saying, "it hurts, please stop"
As have many more women with hetrosexual males.
"as some rapist of adults feel, when the women says, stop, they continue as some feel she can say no, but yet is really enjoying it.
no is no, at any age."
So from your own words, you would have to conclude, a male is a male no matter what his orientation. It is no sicker in my mind to continue to have sex with anyone your hurting. PERIOD. My girlfriend says "stop" and I don't hesitate for fear I have hurt her.
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Message 117755 (In Reply to Message 117734)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_Casey
on Oct 07, 2003 05:20 PM | Also by x_Casey
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"and eventually, even said a few times to me that he was wrong, but that he knew from seeing it in her eyes that his victim did like it, btw his victim was 4 yrs old."
Sure anyone can like sexual attention, even if it is painful. My sister loved "attention," any kind at all, spankings, being yelled at. Whatever she could get.
The fact is, sex is so warped in our society that it is being used wrong. And having sexual contact with someone that has not yet found themselfs is just wrong. Children don't come into their own until puberty, and then they have to do alot of growing for 5 or more years.
Adding sexual confusion, causing love to be associated with sex in such a blunt way, will possibly mess a person up. Since most people don't ever say anything and some do.
It's your sexual problem, don't make it someone elses too. No matter the victims age.
Peace,
Casey
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Message 117763 (In Reply to Message 117740)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_orolan
on Oct 07, 2003 07:33 PM | Also by x_orolan
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"They have all since committed suicide."
Definitely very remorseful about their acts. But they didn't become anti-pedophile. They became anti-self.
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Message 117764 (In Reply to Message 117752)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_orolan
on Oct 07, 2003 07:35 PM | Also by x_orolan
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Casey,
I'd love to hear your views on this. Do you think pedophilia is "curable"? That a pedophile can be treated to the point that they never think of a child in an erotic manner, under any circumstances? Such a cure would be great, but I think it is a pipedream.
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Message 117766 (In Reply to Message 117736)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_orolan
on Oct 07, 2003 07:51 PM | Also by x_orolan
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Anti,
"re how you speak of a true pedophile, re love for the child"
Perhaps the confusion is that I tend to ascribe to the original definition of pedophilia.
Aristotle defined philia thus:
"Philia, in the widest sense, is well named "social sympathy" -- we find this among animals as well as humans. Philia in the narrower sense refers to human friendships."
Another definition from a philosophical dictionary is:
"Philia - Greek term for friendship or amiability"
Given these definitions for philia, and knowing that pedo means child or young one, it is apparent that a "true" pedophile as defined by the original Greek would mean something like "a tendency to have a friendly or amiable relationship with a child". This has been further refined to mean "a tendency to love a child", applying the term outside of the typical parent-child relationship.
A "true" pedophile loves children, thinks them to be beautiful in all things, and even may be obsessed with all things childlike.
It wasn't until the advent of the sciences of psychology and psychiatry that "philia" became a term describing sexual attraction.
Just food for thought.
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Message 117774 (In Reply to Message 117751)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_anti
on Oct 07, 2003 10:05 PM | Also by x_anti
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casey, well honestly what else do you expect? if your words are :
" I think of children sexually"???
as it is not normal, people in general are not about to be very understanding.
anti
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Message 117775 (In Reply to Message 117743)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_anti
on Oct 07, 2003 10:08 PM | Also by x_anti
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steve, ty for agreeing w/ me on this, greatly!!!!!
and yes as I said I do feel of course that even if a adult woman, or older teen, etc is saying no, yes it needs to be respected, but obviously, it is so sad, heartbreaking to me , to hear how a child will beg and say stop it hurts, and yet the adult, still continues.
ty steve, anti
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Message 117776 (In Reply to Message 117766)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_anti
on Oct 07, 2003 10:10 PM | Also by x_anti
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a true pedo??? humm, so by this you r saying that pedos, or all pedos dont hurt kids? never molest kids?
that is wrong.
anti
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Message 117777 (In Reply to Message 117751)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_anti
on Oct 07, 2003 10:11 PM | Also by x_anti
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of course I may find my children or others attractive, but not in a sexual way, never ever, never have, never will, to say my daughter is very pretty, is a truth, or my 2 sons are handsome, a truth, or my friends new baby is adorable, yes another truth, but never to say it in a sexual or any other way.
anti
ps I do think you knew very well what I did mean.
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Message 117779 (In Reply to Message 117740)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_anti
on Oct 07, 2003 10:14 PM | Also by x_anti
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you have? as in what? are you a therapist?
ty, anti
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Message 117787 (In Reply to Message 117722)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_KK
on Oct 08, 2003 12:55 AM | Also by x_KK
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I think rehabilitation is a good word. Cured? A little strong.
The position of being against, yes, I agree. I think extreme views in any area is dangerous.
I am against it, would turn someone in for it. I also think that a sex offense prevents people from working with any vulnerable group: children, DDD, therapy, etc. I think the registry and the labels do more harm than good. Look at the sex offender attempting to move from a secured facility to the community (Like the facilities in WA). The public outcry is: "Not in my neighborhood!" The registry was set up to inform, and it's being used to segregate, punish and shove sex offenders away.
Extreme positions bother me because rehabilitation only works when chances are given. I am not speaking to being alone with children or the like, but a chance at decent jobs (exluding vulnerables) and promotional opportunities. A sex offense shouldn't be the end of the world. Treatment and rehab should be a deciding factor.
I consider myself rather conservative in my viewpoints in general. I think the branding and extreme views is a knee jerk reaction. But rehabilitation can occur and viewpoints do change.
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Message 117790 (In Reply to Message 117728)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_SurvivorForeve
on Oct 08, 2003 01:54 AM | Also by x_SurvivorForeve
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DP1 wrote:
>
> My reasoning would be that through therapy sex
> offenders learn to be empathetic (see and feel other peoples
> feelings) and would probably be more supportive than the
> average. This is why rehabilitated sex offenders can not
> become sex offender theripists (at least in my state) because
> support normally = enabling. However, a pedophile (in denial
> and acting out) would jump at the chance to be an Anti and
> present the extreme viewpoint to make it look like they are
> not guilty of anything (the facade).
I can't tell you how I feel on this subject - because I just don't know - I can say that if you look at most marriage counselors - they are divorced. I know it’s not the same, but I wanted to make that statement. I just don’t know – maybe it would be a case of the blind leading the blind. But on the other hand – maybe not.
Survivor (baffled on this one)
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Message 117796 (In Reply to Message 117790)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_DP1
on Oct 08, 2003 09:52 AM | Also by x_DP1
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I would never never seek a marriage counselor that was divorced...sorry...that's like a double negative. I would want advice from someone who lasted through bad times and didn't get divorced. Anyone can quit, get divorced and learn from their mistakes...it takes a strong person to see things through to the very end...till death do us part? I wouldn't pay for counseling to have someone enable....teach me yes...but not enable or empathize.
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Message 117810 (In Reply to Message 117776)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_orolan
on Oct 08, 2003 11:20 AM | Also by x_orolan
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You use "pedos"(which by the way is NOT a word) as a derogatory, inflammatory and ignorant descriptor for child molesters and child rapists. In that context, "pedos" do molest kids.
To me, the term "pedo" is a slur not unlike Wop, Kike, WASP, "white trash", Spic, ni**er, etc. Usage of these slurs serves only to show the rest of the world how shallow and ignorant the user is.
"Pedophile" is a real word, not an inflammatory slur. And as I stated, when taken in the context of the original Greek from which the word came, it is NOT synonomous with "child molester" or "child rapist". So no, "true" pedophiles do not molest. And not all "pedophiles" as defined by DSM-III or DSM-IV are molesters. Pedophilia is a thought or a desire, not an action.
You need to write this down on Post-it notes and stick them all over your house until it is firmly entrenched in your brain:
"Pedophilia is thoughts, not actions."
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Message 117811 (In Reply to Message 117728)
Good point DP1
Posted by x_Silverthorne
on Oct 08, 2003 11:31 AM | Also by x_Silverthorne
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"However, a pedophile (in denial and acting out) would jump at the chance to be an Anti and present the extreme viewpoint to make it look like they are not guilty of anything (the facade). Any extreme viewpoint is suspect in my eyes."
I agree this goes for just about anything too. I'll use the comparison of Milita's as an example. Alot of people (like myself) hate paying property taxes when they don't have kids in schools (or even income taxes). While I don't like this I'm not out blowing things up because of it.
When I see these "militas" out there playing soldier in the woods I wonder exactly WHAT thier real motivation is.
Silverthorne
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Message 117812 (In Reply to Message 117766)
"True Pedo" ?
Posted by x_Silverthorne
on Oct 08, 2003 11:40 AM | Also by x_Silverthorne
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I've never heard of that term (True Pedo).
I tend to subscribe to the medical definition as laid out by the professionals in the DSM-IV.
Not all pedophiles molest children. Not all child molesters are pedophiles. They're two completely different things.
The only thing that can be said with 100% certainty is pedophiles are sexually attracted to children. It doesn't mean they'll act on those attractions though.
Silverthorne
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Message 117813 (In Reply to Message 117764)
Cure? I wish.
Posted by x_Silverthorne
on Oct 08, 2003 11:41 AM | Also by x_Silverthorne
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I'd sure like to hear too. Cure??? I wish.
Silverthorne
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Message 117814 (In Reply to Message 117740)
Question for Sisco
Posted by x_Silverthorne
on Oct 08, 2003 11:43 AM | Also by x_Silverthorne
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Sisco,
I forget your background are you a PO or a therapist?
Do you believe they committed suicide as a result of the remorse or as a result of the 'life' they now had to lead as a sex offender with all the extra baggage that comes along with it (extensive restrictions, registration, humilation, etc).
Silverthorne
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Message 117817 (In Reply to Message 117766)
interesting
Posted by x_Katie
on Oct 08, 2003 11:52 AM | Also by x_Katie
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Why do we have to change and warp everything? I believe that many do have the friendship/liking and would not hurt children. But others called by the same name love in the sexually sense and that should be called something eles. The two do not always have result.... Nor are the people the same mind set!!
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Message 117830 (In Reply to Message 117740)
Re: interesting
Posted by x_Sisco
on Oct 08, 2003 04:35 PM | Also by x_Sisco
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I believe remorse/guilt/shame. I can see the depression in their face. Hear the inflection in their voice.
There are many offenders (robbery, drug dealers etc...)on a more enhanced/intensive supervision. Yet sex offenders commit suicide more often.
This is my experience only - I do not pull this info from stats.
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Message 117837 (In Reply to Message 117812)
Re: "True Pedo" ?
Posted by x_orolan
on Oct 08, 2003 05:05 PM | Also by x_orolan
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I know where you're coming from. Hence my differentiation between "pedophile"(as defined by DSM III or IV) and "true pedophile"(as defined by the original Greek words).
This is merely an example of how science determined the existence of a condition, sexual attraction to children, and went looking for a word to describe it. Pedophile was at that time used to mean "childlover", so the usage seemed to be as close as they were going to get.
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Message 117840 (In Reply to Message 117830)
Why ?
Posted by x_Silverthorne
on Oct 08, 2003 05:07 PM | Also by x_Silverthorne
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Sisco,
I guess I'm asking WHY they commit suicide more often. Do they leave notes saying why they died? What do you think are the "real" reasons they did it? Remorse over the crime or misery over all the extra regs they suffer on probation versus other criminals?
Silverthorne
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Message 117841 (In Reply to Message 117830)
Re: interesting
Posted by x_orolan
on Oct 08, 2003 05:08 PM | Also by x_orolan
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"There are many offenders (robbery, drug dealers etc...)on a more enhanced/intensive supervision."
While I don't profess to know all there is to know, I find this one hard to swallow. What states have stronger and more restrictive requirements for robbers than they do for sex offenders?
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Message 117845 (In Reply to Message 117777)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_Casey
on Oct 08, 2003 05:19 PM | Also by x_Casey
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Yes. But you fail to see how all it takes is a subconcious adaptation for someone to turn that normal attraction into a sexual one. I find many things attractive, and if I wasn't aware of myself like I am and curtain events came together just right, I am sure I could convert that attraction into a sexual one.
This will happen much more in males than females. But just like your attraction (innocent) to things, males have then samething. We just don't talk about it.
Peace,
Casey
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Message 117852 (In Reply to Message 117764)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_Casey
on Oct 08, 2003 06:12 PM | Also by x_Casey
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I am really bad at putting things in order. And what I am gonna type here is just general stuff I have heard and stuff I have went through myself.
First, do you know yourself? Have you taken hours just poundering your life say like on a weekly bases? Or do you just accept a mass definition? Ok your a pedophile, why? "Because I have thoughts of children sexually." Is that the only thing you think of sexually? Why is it that pedophiles only seem to be able to get off on certain age groups? One will like 2 year olds, the next, 10 year olds. Some like boys and some like girls...WHY? Do you know yourself?
Second when did this happen? Have you always had this attraction? I mean since you hit puberty. Or did it just all of the sudden blow up at a curtain age, only growing stronger as the years pass? Really think about that.
Are you afraid of your thoughts? Perhaps instead of just accepting these sexual surface thoughts, you should dig deeper. What is behind all these thoughts? What is my mind trying to get out of this? Are there certain times they seem to flare?
If you are like "this is who I am why change it..." then you won't get anywhere. Besides I don't think that you saying "What cure?" means you believe that. You doubt that there is "no" cure.
Who is in control of you? You are. Your body is gonna use all the information it has sucked in over the years (consciencly or sub-consciencly) to get what "it" wants. When you start feeling a certain way, you affect your body, your body then tries to fix it. Depending on what images your eyes have seen, what things your ears have heard, and what has worked and has not for you, this is where your brain gets the information on how to treat (fix) you.
For instance, I get depressed. I feel like crap. My body "now" feels like crap, because I am causing this. My body replies with two things it knows helps to dampen this feeling. Food and Sex. Everyone goes through this. Either it's eat or no eat, and I don't know too many people that don't have sex to relieve stress. Easy to understand that.
With pedophiles your sexual information is different, your brain has changed things due to the route of your life. Nobody chooses to be different, life creates this. Our brains adapt. Your sexual information is prone towards a child. Ontop of that for some reason you like a certain age group and a certain sex. Just about always.
I can't tell you what things in your life caused this, only you can go back and slowly pull everthing apart. I don't know YOUR life. I can tell you, that once you start this up, you will become more and more in control. And over time the sexual thoughts will slowly become less and less.
For me I had to let go of one thing at a time. I looked at less porn. Then I looked at less. Then none. I used my imagination. Then I used it less. And now the last time I thought about a minor sexually was 4 months ago. And this was an actual event from 10 years ago. In my past basically. I see kids all the time, I use to have much different feelings when I saw them. Now it's like it was when I was a kid. I don't really care. And I don't go "wow they're SEXY..." in my head that is. Which I use too. I still can find children attractive, but I do women and men as well.
I have learned these thoughts are not something I conjure, but my mind. I have taken the control back. Instead of feeding it, I just laugh it off. As any sexual thought. And because I no longer feed it, I really hardly ever get them. It will never completely go away, and this is because your brain has recorded this part of your life. You cannot erase it. Your mind will bring it back up now and again, espically when things get though, cause these are the thoughts that use to help you feel better.
You have control, once you really want it back, take the time to find yourself and slowly over the course of 3 or more years you will gain it back.
People lie to you when they act like they have never had a thought even remotely like you have. Perhaps they dont feed it. And perhaps they have never masturbated to it. But don't be fooled. Even the slightest thought of a sexual nature about a child will have some people scared to death. And they will never say a word. Yet some are child molesters and pedophiles by night and anti's by day. It's only a thought. You make it real.
I hope some of this made sense. I jump around alot. I know what I am trying to say, it just dont' always come out like that.
Peace,
Casey
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Message 117861 (In Reply to Message 117852)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_orolan
on Oct 08, 2003 09:17 PM | Also by x_orolan
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Really good topics, Casey. Too many to address them all, but I'd like to comment a little.
Age preference for pedophiles is no different than for "normal" people. Why do I prefer brunettes but my brother likes blondes? Why do I prefer A and B cups but my brother prefers C and D cups? Why do I at 43 have a 22 year-old girlfriend but my brother at 26 has a 35 year-old girlfriend? Simple. We're all different, and we have different tastes. Pedophiles are no different in that respect.
And your next-to-the-last paragraph is spot-on. There are millions of men out there that have a brief "I wish" fantasy at the sight of a teenage girl in a bikini. And there are just as many women who have the same sort of fantasy when they see the muscle-bound well-tanned teenage boy walking next to her. People will deny it, but they know it is true.
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Message 117864 (In Reply to Message 117840)
Suicide
Posted by x_DP1
on Oct 08, 2003 09:34 PM | Also by x_DP1
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Most of the sex offenders I have seen admit to attempting suicide several times in their lifetime. Some go into deep depression after they are arrested and continue with the suicidal thoughts. We have numerous examples of offenders who got caught reoffending and actually did kill themselves.
I had a guy on my caseload years ago that killed himself right before I visited his home. What a shock! I was assigned an intern from our local college to train and we were working together that night. The intern (you all know as DTCDTT) and I were riding around checking on my house arrest sex offenders. I told DTCDTT about how crazy this guy was and that his wife was accusing him of trying to kill her by putting poison in her tea. (they were both completely nuts!) Anyway, DTCDTT and I drove up to his house and we noticed police cars, ambulances, the news cameras, yellow tape and cops running all around. My heart fell into my stomach because I was wondering if his wife was right about him trying to kill her. We walked up to the police officer and asked about what was going one. The officer said that the sex offender dowsed himself in gasoline while inside the kitchen then went outside in the back yard, laid down on a lounge chair and lit himself up like a christmas tree. The neighbor was watching tv and heard a big boom! She looked outside and saw her neighbor completely engulfed in flames while screaming and laying on the chair then called 911. By the time help arrived he was a crispy critter. After the officer told me the story we looked up and there he went in a black back into the ambulance and away he went.
I can't speak for DTCDTT but after learning about all the innocent young boys and girls this SOB molested we weren't exactly upset about his abrupt departure from this planet. Come to find out he and his wife were members of a church where they were bringing kids over to their home after church every week. Once at the home he would molest them....this went on for years.
Suicide attempts or thoughts and sex offenders seem to go hand and hand. I believe it's because of the irrational thought process. The all or nothing mentality. As long as pedophiles continue to think rationally sexual offending will be minimized. Think about it. If they think about the consequences they probably will be able to talk themselves out of molesting. The key is not to get in the depressed state where all your thoughts are irrational and you never get to the consequences stage of thinking.
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Message 117868 (In Reply to Message 117796)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_LJ
on Oct 08, 2003 09:49 PM | Also by x_LJ
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DP1:
Wouldn't it be effective, then, for a rehabilitated SO (as a therapist) to teach another SO about their pattern recognition, hurtfulness of their actions, relapse prevention techniques, etc.? It wouldn't be a double negative situation at all.
My experience in group therapy years ago was that no one gave the other a break at all in devious or deviant behavior. We were fired up rather vehemently, at times, for behaviors and denial patterns. A SO licensed therapist with a background history of a sex offense may know the tricks and techniques another may try to hide behind and can bust through them more effectively than one who just knows it academically. We had many therapists come in who didn't know what they were doing, except for whatever the latest theory was at the time, and many of them didn't last very long there.
I also learned more from alcoholics in AA than I ever did from non-drinkers who had theories about it all.
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Message 117875 (In Reply to Message 117864)
Motivations
Posted by x_Silverthorne
on Oct 08, 2003 10:52 PM | Also by x_Silverthorne
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"If they think about the consequences they probably will be able to talk themselves out of molesting."
Like Ive said while I have many motivations like God and Empathy this is also one of them.
Silverthorne
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Message 117877 (In Reply to Message 117861)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_Casey
on Oct 08, 2003 10:57 PM | Also by x_Casey
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Oh I wasn't saying so much we are not so different. But for the sake of knowing yourself, I am just saying try to think on why or what happened that you can remember that might have some bearing on your choice... I really think most of what we are is learned. Or we make it that way, and don't know it.
I looked back and I found why I liked who I did. Sorry for the confusion.
Peace,
Casey
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Message 117878 (In Reply to Message 117868)
Therapists
Posted by x_DP1
on Oct 08, 2003 11:01 PM | Also by x_DP1
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One particular sex offender couldn't possibly know more about sex offending than a therapist. Think about it....look at all the different types of sex offenders on this site, the different pedophiles with various interpretations and different fantasies, likes dislikes etc....each one is different. So how could you for example, someone who participated in an incest situation have any clue more than me about why a pervert spanks his monkey in front of children at the bus stop. Or why a grown man would rape a prostitute. You or I would have to learn that behavior out of a textbook since it's not something we do on a daily basis. The problem with being a sex offender is that it's not healthy for them to be around deviant thoughts day in and day out...they could very very easily fall in to the trap. Look at this site for example...watch the verbal manipulation and how the conversations get intensely more deviant until one of us non-pedos steps in.
I've seen too many drug and alcohol counselors relapse it's ridiculous. I don't buy into the fact that your therapist has to empathize....they have to educate instead. Being a sex offender therapist is much more intense than just a regular therapist. It takes years of training. There might be therapists out there that don't know what they are doing but it's not like sex offenders would do any better. It's a difficult field to be in - not everyone can handle or even grasp the level of deviancy or manipulation. I see it with my own profession. No matter how much training some people go to they still don't get it.
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Message 117881 (In Reply to Message 117864)
Memrois of a Child Molester
Posted by x_DoTheCrimeDoTh
on Oct 08, 2003 11:23 PM | Also by x_DoTheCrimeDoTh
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DP1,
I remember that night and was going to post but you beat me too it.
Mr. Molester truly was a pedopile and a child molester. And, as I recall, his family was blaming you for his demise becasue "YOU" violated his house arrest, because he resisted arrest when he was being arrested for some other charge. And, not to mention, the holiday of Yom Kippor had something to do with it, and if I am not mistaken, Halloween was in that blame letter from the daughter as well. (Wasn't she a witch?) And, you didn't return his phone call that day too. Wonder if he was trying to get permission to "leave the county"?
Each night we arrived at Mr. Molester's, I wanted to throw up. The man was in denial to his dying day. Just couldn't see what the problems was with what he did. I remember his jerking motions when we arrived, always in his pajamas. It was not his fault, right.
And, if any of you want to think the registry had something to do with, WRONG! This happend just as the registry was being put in place.
Had an offender slice his wrist in court the other day as well. He knew he was facing life in prison, brought a shank from the jail, and lost his composure in front of the judge, so he was sent back to the holding cell. There, he sliced and diced (and lived)just to escape his prison sentence. So registries have nothing to do with this.
DP1 had me exposed to all types of sex offenders. He taught me to hate the crime, not the person. Even though we are in differnt counties now, I still think about Mr. Molester this time of year and make contact with DP1 just to say hi, and see if he wants to get our families together for a bar b que. Child molestation and suicide, effects more people than just the victims and their families. Mr. Molesters momentus day will linger in my mind forever.
Thank you DP1, you taught me well.
DTCDTT
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Message 117896 (In Reply to Message 117810)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_anti
on Oct 09, 2003 12:08 AM | Also by x_anti
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sorry, wrong, pedo is just a short of pedophile.
as so is to sex offender.
anti
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Message 117902 (In Reply to Message 117864)
Suicide VS Extreme Ego's
Posted by x_SurvivorForeve
on Oct 09, 2003 12:55 AM | Also by x_SurvivorForeve
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Wow – you guys!
Let me ask you this,
IE:
If you have a suspect in interrogation who is bragging about an obvious rape, but the suspect states it was not a rape but consensual sex and as an officer – you know it was rape.
Who is more dangerous? The suspect who admits guilt and shows remorse or the suspect that does not and states innocence when the evidence is over whelming against him or her.?
Also, who would be the one to commit suicide first? The one who admits guilt or the one that braggs about the crime?
Survivor
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Message 117913 (In Reply to Message 117878)
Re: Therapists
Posted by x_LJ
on Oct 09, 2003 03:32 AM | Also by x_LJ
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I can concede that there are many variations of sex offenses and ways of acting out. Thought processes can vary as to each individual's reasons for doing whichever deviant acting out they choose to engage in. It's been over 20 years since I was in a treatment facility and I'm sure techniques are different now than they were then.
We were all taught basically the same patterns-no matter which deviant behavior was our "outlet"(negative release of feelings in the form of a sexual offense). None of us, whether it be an exhibitionist, an adult rapist, a child molester, or a peeping tom, were treated in any different category. All patterns, all study materials, all lines of therapy, etc. were geared to a specific universal format--and if we didn't fit the protocol, then they threw away the facts and adhered to the theory.
So, based on my experience in there, any one of us who truly learned the format while in there could have been a therapist in that particular program. In fact, we were our own therapists to each other most of the time via group process and the therapists would just come in maybe once or twice a week at the most for a few minutes to give feedback on certain issues that arose. My particular group (one of about 10 in the entire program) even went as much as 3 or 4 months at a time without an assigned therapist in charge of us. We just followed protocol and did what was required of us in the general plan of treatment.
As far as being around the deviant thoughts all day, I heard so many of those on a daily basis while in there that I just became "numbed out" from it rather than bothered by any of it.
I say all of this only from own experience--it's not meant as any repudiation towards your post. Thanks, DP1!
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Message 117917 (In Reply to Message 117881)
Re: Memrois of a Child Molester
Posted by x_Lildrafire
on Oct 09, 2003 04:10 AM | Also by x_Lildrafire
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I remember the "plan" I had "just in case" I was sentenced to prison time...I carried a razor blade in my pocket to slit my wrists in the courtroom...so eerily familiar to what was said here...So what happened? What changed me?
Being diagnosed as bipolar and put on medicine for it. Everytime I say anything about bipolar I feel I am basically ignored and I don't know why. It IS a real problem. On medications, not cycling between depressed and manic, I am a totally different person. My thought process are rational, my perceptions aren't warped, etc... People with bipolar have problems way before they get so bad as to offend...if people would just learn to recognize the symptoms and help these sick people get help. I wish I would have had intervention before I did what I did. I was misdiagnosed years before because I only sought help for the DEPRESSION. Consider this.
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Message 117921 (In Reply to Message 117764)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_LJ
on Oct 09, 2003 04:49 AM | Also by x_LJ
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Orolan:
Similar, wouldn't you say, to the adage," You can't stop a bird from flying over your head, but you can stop it from building a nest in your hair?"
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Message 117930 (In Reply to Message 117902)
Re: Suicide VS Extreme Ego's
Posted by x_DP1
on Oct 09, 2003 09:32 AM | Also by x_DP1
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Easy one. The sex offender in denial is considererd the riskier of the two. You can't rehabilitate someone who doesn't take responsibility. If he/she doesn't take responsibility or acknowledges that the behavior is wrong then most likely it might happen again. My guy that killed himself by setting himself on fire refused to admit his guilt. Continued to say that he didn't do it despite the fact that he was found guilty. He was too stuborn.....saw death as the only way to escape the embarassment and shame. The guys that feel bad, show remorse, take responsibility, etc...do suffer from depression. They tend to learn how to manage it and build themselves back up in time...normally either meds or counseling or both do the trick. Time is on their side and works wonders with healing.
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Message 117933 (In Reply to Message 117917)
Re: Memrois of a Child Molester
Posted by x_DP1
on Oct 09, 2003 09:39 AM | Also by x_DP1
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Lil,
I am glad you're on the road to recovery. Unfortunately, I have seen what you are saying about being misdiagnosed. It's very common with offenders in general not just with sex offenders. Most females addicted to drugs tend to self medicate in lieu of getting professional help. I've always wondered about all the children in the nation we have on ritilan for attention deficeit syndrome....think they or most of them will be future bipolars? They don't normally diagnose folks with bi-polar until at least mid to late 20's. So minors go undetected...how stupid is that...get a clue folks!
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Message 117969 (In Reply to Message 117722)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_Daphne
on Oct 09, 2003 03:11 PM | Also by x_Daphne
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Hmmm...would you trust Hitler (after years of intense therapy, with his doctors' sworn testimony that this is a changed man!) to become a Jewish youth group leader? Or invite a "rehabilitated" Charles Manson to dinner with your family? Some acts are not merely "crimes," and it is dangerous to think of them as such...it allows us to apply society's viewpoint rather than our own visceral reaction of righteous anger and the natural disgust at encountering an affront to humanity. We need to remember that jaywalking is a violation of the law...sexual assault in its many forms is the purest form of evil to run so rampant and affect so many victims and bystanders...if it were merely a law being broken, then perhaps the concept of rehabilitation could have some merit. But we are not talking about coming from a bad neighborhood and winding up in the wrong crowd and selling drugs...we are talking about looking at a human being and seeing an object and failing to acknowledge or recognize that human being's right to their own body and their right to be safe within it. We are talking about looking at a child and being unable to see that the mere desire to touch a child sexually is so fundamentally wrong that anyone who feels any such desire has to commit the heroic action of suicide...or by acting on their desire, forfeit their life to the revenge that should be exacted brutally and legally. No "crime" is as automatically and categorically wrong as that which is committed against a weaker creature. Even murder can occasionally be committed with some idea of justification. But to harm a child or an animal, an innocent being with no capacity for understanding its own pain or whether it could possibly have avoided it, whether it is being punished in some way, a being whose extent of thought may be as torturous as Why are they hurting me? How can I make them want not to hurt me? any slug capable of abusing the weak, the innocent, the helpless, any filth with the desire to do so, deserves no sympathy, no mercy, and gods' sakes, NO CHANCE TO DO IT AGAIN!!!
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Message 118070 (In Reply to Message 117969)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_LJ
on Oct 10, 2003 10:52 PM | Also by x_LJ
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Would that also include abortionists who murder innocent fetuses?
Or, possibly Saul of Tarsus, who wiped out entire families of men, women, and children for a belief system they held and then became one of them later on?
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Message 118079 (In Reply to Message 117913)
Re: Therapists
Posted by x_LJ
on Oct 11, 2003 02:27 AM | Also by x_LJ
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In Simon's post on 10/06/03 called "Civil Commitment: to be released or not," the article from the Seattle P.I. has the quote "For example, we "now know" that sex offenders are not equally dangerous."
This pretty much verifies my experience in the 80's that we all went through the same degree of treatment process with no variations or consideration as to the different kinds of sex crimes one committed to get placed into the program. It was a one-size-fits-all type of treatment program.
Glad to see that they finally caught up with what we already knew back then.
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Message 118157 (In Reply to Message 117969)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_orolan
on Oct 13, 2003 12:35 PM | Also by x_orolan
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Daphne,
Like most of society, you generalize entirely too much. Not ALL sex offenders have harmed a "child". Not all "children" were unwilling and unknowing participants in a painful and demeaning act.
And contrary to the wishes of some others on this board, thoughts, no matter how reprehensible they may be to you or others, are not illegal...yet.
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Message 118158 (In Reply to Message 117969)
RE: Question?
Posted by x_orolan
on Oct 13, 2003 12:35 PM | Also by x_orolan
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Daphne,
Like most of society, you generalize entirely too much. Not ALL sex offenders have harmed a "child". Not all "children" were unwilling and unknowing participants in a painful and demeaning act.
And contrary to the wishes of some others on this board, thoughts, no matter how reprehensible they may be to you or others, are not illegal...yet.
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Thread
117722, x_LJ, Oct 07, 2003 03:52 AM [RE: Question?]
117728, x_DP1, Oct 07, 2003 09:08 AM [RE: Question?]
117730, x_orolan, Oct 07, 2003 09:23 AM [RE: Question?]
117735, x_anti, Oct 07, 2003 10:39 AM [RE: Question?]
117751, x_Casey, Oct 07, 2003 05:05 PM [RE: Question?]
117774, x_anti, Oct 07, 2003 10:05 PM [RE: Question?]
117777, x_anti, Oct 07, 2003 10:11 PM [RE: Question?]
117845, x_Casey, Oct 08, 2003 05:19 PM [RE: Question?]
117790, x_SurvivorForeve, Oct 08, 2003 01:54 AM [RE: Question?]
117796, x_DP1, Oct 08, 2003 09:52 AM [RE: Question?]
117868, x_LJ, Oct 08, 2003 09:49 PM [RE: Question?]
117878, x_DP1, Oct 08, 2003 11:01 PM [Therapists]
117913, x_LJ, Oct 09, 2003 03:32 AM [Re: Therapists]
118079, x_LJ, Oct 11, 2003 02:27 AM [Re: Therapists]
117811, x_Silverthorne, Oct 08, 2003 11:31 AM [Good point DP1]
117729, x_orolan, Oct 07, 2003 09:20 AM [RE: Question?]
117736, x_anti, Oct 07, 2003 10:44 AM [RE: Question?]
117743, x_Steve, Oct 07, 2003 12:28 PM [RE: Question?]
117775, x_anti, Oct 07, 2003 10:08 PM [RE: Question?]
117753, x_Casey, Oct 07, 2003 05:13 PM [RE: Question?]
117754, Rejected
117766, x_orolan, Oct 07, 2003 07:51 PM [RE: Question?]
117776, x_anti, Oct 07, 2003 10:10 PM [RE: Question?]
117810, x_orolan, Oct 08, 2003 11:20 AM [RE: Question?]
117896, x_anti, Oct 09, 2003 12:08 AM [RE: Question?]
117812, x_Silverthorne, Oct 08, 2003 11:40 AM ["True Pedo" ?]
117837, x_orolan, Oct 08, 2003 05:05 PM [Re: "True Pedo" ?]
117817, x_Katie, Oct 08, 2003 11:52 AM [interesting]
117752, x_Casey, Oct 07, 2003 05:07 PM [RE: Question?]
117764, x_orolan, Oct 07, 2003 07:35 PM [RE: Question?]
117813, x_Silverthorne, Oct 08, 2003 11:41 AM [Cure? I wish.]
117852, x_Casey, Oct 08, 2003 06:12 PM [RE: Question?]
117861, x_orolan, Oct 08, 2003 09:17 PM [RE: Question?]
117877, x_Casey, Oct 08, 2003 10:57 PM [RE: Question?]
117921, x_LJ, Oct 09, 2003 04:49 AM [RE: Question?]
117734, x_anti, Oct 07, 2003 10:37 AM [RE: Question?]
117755, x_Casey, Oct 07, 2003 05:20 PM [RE: Question?]
117740, x_Sisco, Oct 07, 2003 11:34 AM [RE: Question?]
117763, x_orolan, Oct 07, 2003 07:33 PM [RE: Question?]
117779, x_anti, Oct 07, 2003 10:14 PM [RE: Question?]
117814, x_Silverthorne, Oct 08, 2003 11:43 AM [Question for Sisco]
117830, x_Sisco, Oct 08, 2003 04:35 PM [Re: interesting]
117840, x_Silverthorne, Oct 08, 2003 05:07 PM [Why ?]
117864, x_DP1, Oct 08, 2003 09:34 PM [Suicide]
117875, x_Silverthorne, Oct 08, 2003 10:52 PM [Motivations]
117881, x_DoTheCrimeDoTh, Oct 08, 2003 11:23 PM [Memrois of a Child Molester]
117917, x_Lildrafire, Oct 09, 2003 04:10 AM [Re: Memrois of a Child Mo...]
117933, x_DP1, Oct 09, 2003 09:39 AM [Re: Memrois of a Child Molester]
117902, x_SurvivorForeve, Oct 09, 2003 12:55 AM [Suicide VS Extreme Ego's]
117930, x_DP1, Oct 09, 2003 09:32 AM [Re: Suicide VS Extreme Ego's]
117841, x_orolan, Oct 08, 2003 05:08 PM [Re: interesting]
117787, x_KK, Oct 08, 2003 12:55 AM [RE: Question?]
117969, x_Daphne, Oct 09, 2003 03:11 PM [RE: Question?]
118070, x_LJ, Oct 10, 2003 10:52 PM [RE: Question?]
118157, x_orolan, Oct 13, 2003 12:35 PM [RE: Question?]
118158, x_orolan, Oct 13, 2003 12:35 PM [RE: Question?]
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