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Forum: Polls
Thread (Discussion): Poll 1040 - Should private vigilantes groups be allowed to conduct Internet sting operations to catc - lol ohh my orlan, pleasee get a real life.
Message 134448
Introduction
Posted by admin
on May 21, 2004 08:53 AM | Also by admin
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Discuss Poll 1040 - Should private vigilantes groups be allowed to conduct Internet sting operations to catch would-be child molesters?
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Message 134470 (In Reply to Message 134448)
Absolutely not
Posted by mystik
on May 21, 2004 08:06 PM | Also by mystik
| Gender: Male,
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State: Colorado,
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In a country where it is illegal for a petite small-breasted 24 year-old with a waxed pubic area to have herself photographed in a Little Red Riding Hood outfit in sexually suggestive poses (Federal pornography law classifies such photographs as child pornography because they "simulate" child sex activity), I find it amazing that it would be legal for an adult to portray themselves as a child and engage in frank and explicit conversations of a sexual nature.
Leave the chat stings to the cops. If you have nothing better to do with your time than to engage in deviant fantasies by pretending to be a 13 year-old girl when you are in fact a 35 year-old man your time would be better-spent getting some therapy.
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Message 134487 (In Reply to Message 134470)
Posted by Navigatr1
on May 21, 2004 10:13 PM | Also by Navigatr1
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mystik wrote:
Leave the chat stings to the cops. If you have nothing better to do with your time than to engage in deviant fantasies by pretending to be a 13 year-old girl when you are in fact a 35 year-old man your time would be better-spent getting some therapy.
I agree. A lot of cops who do these types of stings, or investigate child pornography end up becoming deviants themselves as they become hooked on it. Watch the denial and minimization start when these Internet vigilantes become the very perverts they are trying to protect everyone from.
--Navigatr1
CopWatch.com News Moderator
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Message 134575 (In Reply to Message 134470)
training
Posted by LostTime
on May 22, 2004 11:26 PM | Also by LostTime
| Gender: Male,
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I believe this should be left to people who have the proper training so when they do find a perp the charges stick. If they want to set up a volunteer organization whit training and overseen by LE that would be something. Just going out there without the training i would think hands a lot of these guys a get out of jail free card.
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Message 138501 (In Reply to Message 134470)
mystik
Posted by serenity2004
on Aug 08, 2004 07:32 AM | Also by serenity2004
| Gender: Female,
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State: Ohio,
Country: United States |
With pedophiles numbering in the millions in the United States alone, how would you expect Law Enforcement to keep up with bringing these sickos down if it weren't for individual pedohunters providing atleast some of the evidence used for convictions.
I do not agree with the organizations out there that lure/entrap people into sexually explicit conversations and then post them along with a picture and whatever other info they can find on that individual. That is a waste of time, as it could never be used to prosecute the pedo....Embarrasment doesn't stop a sick person, it just gets them to change their screenname or website name.
I do however agree that if a pedohunter follows the same rules as Law Enforcement when it comes to entrapment, and not downloading cp to their hard drive, disk etc. and only utilizes the information that they aquire to further an investigation by Law Enforcement than that is great! More power to them!
I have a friend who has been a part of providing quite a bit of information to Law Enforcement that has ended in some newsmaking convictions. That person has never had to entrap anyone. That person has never had to download Child Porn. That person works closely with Law Enforcement and does not get paid for doing it.....they do it because they have a great dedication to saving children from the sickos out there!
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Message 138508 (In Reply to Message 138501)
serentity2004
Posted by dp1
on Aug 08, 2004 03:17 PM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
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We used to have a regular poster on this site named Anti who did the very same thing you're talking about. She was featured on the Montel show. You may have heard about her efforts.
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Message 138928 (In Reply to Message 134448)
They do it anyway
Posted by HPierce
on Aug 19, 2004 10:10 PM | Also by HPierce
| Gender: Male,
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Regardless of if they should be allowed or not, they do. There are a number of 'do-gooder' groups than attempt to groom would-be victims. There are also individuals such as Anti and Silverthorne that have gone online with the intent on seeing who they could get.
I think it is wrong. Regardless of the good intentions I feel there is usually an element of trying to do someone in. I wouldn't trust any of their methods to be fair or within the confines of the law. I doubt most of them even understand what they can or can't legally do. In the end it doesn't matter. The courts will gladly look the other way if they are presented with a peodphile (albeit trumpted up charges).
H. Pierce proud pedosexual
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Message 139310 (In Reply to Message 138928)
agree
Posted by artie
on Sep 01, 2004 12:58 AM | Also by artie
| Gender: Male,
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State: Florida,
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First, it is illegal for reasons you may not be told. You can not vigilante the perps unless you play their games. The authorities know this.
There is a tremendous price paid for playing their games. One becomes desensitized to the content. The authorities know this and have counselors and psychotherapists on staff to alleviate some of the safeties internal to the normal person. A private citizen or group will not have these controls or counseling.
Private groups do not have the studies and information available to them with which they can assimilate correct courses of action. Vigilantes’ end up offending by virtue of the evidence accumulated by their “research”
This should be limited to a certain controlled few who are constantly under supervision.
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Message 144302 (In Reply to Message 138928)
re hp, sick as usual...
Posted by anti
on Jan 22, 2005 06:07 PM | Also by anti
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re silver hp, I will not speak on him, that he can do, but me , I go online to see who I can get??
wow what a way to word it, and NO I dont do that, I work offline, and when online as I equally work, I work to keep kids safe, understood?
and I do whatever in the law that I need to, to do that.
thank you, hp.
anti
ps all of my cases have stuck, le never turned any down, humm, wonder why?
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Message 144329 (In Reply to Message 138928)
HPierce
Posted by oioi
on Jan 22, 2005 09:23 PM | Also by oioi
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Tell us all why you are proud. It would be very enlightening.
Oioi
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Message 146026 (In Reply to Message 144329)
Posted by texas
on Feb 23, 2005 06:24 AM | Also by texas
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trust,hum?i am sure that someone trusted you,and you violated that trust.and what is there to proud of hurting little kids?even if you just look at child porn,there are victims,THE KIDS on the picture were the victims.there isn't a victimless crime where child sex abuse is corcerned!but as for sliverthorne and anti,get a life.i know that kids need to be protected,but to pretend that you are a kid to try and catch someone,who is the sick one now.what do you write to catch them???if you see something that is not right turn them in.but let the police do their jobs!what happens if you think that you got a ped?and the charge doesn't stick and he found out where you lived or something?let the police do their job,we have enough nuts in the world.
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Message 146036 (In Reply to Message 144329)
never tell oioi
Posted by myoung
on Feb 23, 2005 01:45 PM | Also by myoung
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I asked him that in 2003 when I came to this forum but I NEVER got a response...you won't either. He hides behind it
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Message 146052 (In Reply to Message 146036)
Posted by 1dadof5
on Feb 23, 2005 03:38 PM | Also by 1dadof5
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he has been "hiding" for awhile now. I wonder if HP is locked up somewhere?
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Message 146060 (In Reply to Message 146026)
Posted by texas
on Feb 23, 2005 04:52 PM | Also by texas
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if he has hurt someone i would hope that he is or at the least getting some help.but are sliverthorne and anti hiding?no reponse from the "just" ones.maybe they are considering what i had written?
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Message 146118 (In Reply to Message 146060)
texas
Posted by LockEmUp
on Feb 24, 2005 02:06 PM | Also by LockEmUp
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if he has hurt someone i would hope that he is or at the least getting some help
Agreed. In his bio, this person claims to be a proud foster parent, and in his posts claims to be a proud pedosexual. I wonder if he was proud enough to let the foster care people know this when he signed up to be a foster dad.
By the way, online entrapment does work. Law enforcement is cooperative, and people have been sent to prison as a result of their online conversations with adults posing as children. Perverted Justice has a few convictions to their credit.
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Message 146127 (In Reply to Message 146118)
Posted by orolan
on Feb 24, 2005 05:37 PM | Also by orolan
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Perverted Justice has a few convictions to their credit.
Perverted Justice (God how I love the irony of that name) is nothing but an ego-boost for it's owner, Xavier V** E***. Are you aware that the people who "bust" alleged pedophiles were prohibited from contacting police unless Vavier granted SPECIFIC permission to do so? And by his own words, Xavier says he has 'loosened the reins'. What that means nobody knows, and there is no evidence that anything has changed regarding procedures for first-contact. Why do you suppose it is that he won't allow 'contributors' to simply call the police? Why not have a policy of 'no reins'?
Because he wants complete and total control of his harrassment and entrapment campaign.
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Message 146131 (In Reply to Message 146127)
orolan
Posted by LockEmUp
on Feb 24, 2005 09:01 PM | Also by LockEmUp
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I'm not tuned in to the inner workings or the rules of their site, as I have not contributed as a "decoy". The site is harmless - unless you engage in a sexually suggestive manner to someone in a chatroom who you think is a minor, then drive to meet them. Then you may have a slight problem. A lot of people's lives have been turned upside down because they can't control themselves. Teachers, coaches, cops, and attorneys have all gone down (pardon the pun) because of PJ. More power to them.
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Message 146147 (In Reply to Message 146131)
Posted by orolan
on Feb 25, 2005 01:14 AM | Also by orolan
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Consider this. I can quite easily post a chat log here in this forum, complete with valid IP addresses, that details a long drawn-out erotic conversation between an adult (female) and me pretending to be a 13 year-old boy. The log will show her giving me her address, even giving me her phone number. Even discussing times and places to meet so she can show me 'how to be a man'. Having done so, I can then pass it on to her local newspaper, who will jump all over it and throw it on the front page. She'll be vilified in the press, shunned in the streets. Heck, I can drive up to her house and confront her at the door. She'll deny it all, but who will believe her?
Get the picture? If I wanted to, which I don't, I could ruin this person's life in 10 minutes.
The reason Xavier doesn't call the police is because most of his tactics and 'busts' are suspect or downright illegal. They've 'busted' 600+ people, and maybe 8 or 9 have actually been charged. That's a pretty lousy record if you ask me.
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Message 146156 (In Reply to Message 146147)
orolan
Posted by LockEmUp
on Feb 25, 2005 04:07 AM | Also by LockEmUp
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State: New Jersey,
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I understand your point of view, but respectfully do not agree. I simply cannot sympathize with a sleazy adult sitting behind a computer trying to "get a date" with a child. If the chat you described went as planned, the adult involved should be both villified and shunned, in my opinion. A few people have been jailed as a result of their unique chat habits, though the rest of them have to be content with their friends, family, and co-workers finding out how they spend their internet chat time. I'd consider that being more "busted" than an actual arrest.
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Message 146158 (In Reply to Message 146156)
Posted by steve
on Feb 25, 2005 04:56 AM | Also by steve
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I could be wrong, but I think what orolan was saying was that a chat log can be completely falsified and then someone can go to a person's home and claim the person at the home setup the meeting - all backed up by the falsified chat log. As an IT consultant who provides services dealing with Internet security, I can vouch for the fact that it would be very easy to pull something like that off and make it difficult for the target to prove his or her innocence.
It's been a few months since I've visited either, but if anyone wants to make an informed decision about the actions of Perverted-Justice, they'll need to register as a user on both Perverted-Justice and a site that disagrees with what Perverted-Justice is and does, Corrupted-Justice. And you'll need to spend hours reading messages and pages on both over the course of a number of days.
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Message 146201 (In Reply to Message 146158)
steve
Posted by LockEmUp
on Feb 25, 2005 05:14 PM | Also by LockEmUp
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I am a registered member of PJ, and have read most of the info on their site. While I agree a chat could be falsified, the busts that occur on PJ are followed up on quite thoroughly. The person usually sends an image of themselves to who they believe to be a minor, converses with the minor (a PJ volunteer), and sometimes actually drives to meet their underage "date". When they are caught, everyone denies their involvement, but the truth eventually comes out. Orolan and other opponents of this type of site will say that that it is a setup, and they are correct - it is a setup to catch possible child abusers before they act. A very simple way not to have your life turned inside out by sites like PJ is not to engage in sexually suggestive chats with minors.
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Message 146207 (In Reply to Message 146156)
Posted by valdosta2
on Feb 25, 2005 08:49 PM | Also by valdosta2
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I understand your point of view very well. I think men who spend their nights trying to obtain sex from young teenage girls are deplorable, pathetic, and prosecutable.
However, I respect the law. I think there is a reason that people are rigorously trained and accredited to enforce our laws and uphold due process. I am very glad that the bodies that uphold the law are accountable and subject to review and discipline.
If I wanted to catch pedophiles and prosecute them, I would become a police officer or a lawyer. I would spend years learning the rules and *ethics* of these professions, and I would be subject to scrutiny by my peers and superiors. If I were an at-home amateur, I would contact the law enforcement and ask them how I could go about helping in an ethical way, like Julie Posey did.
I do not believe that postering, constant phone-calling, emailing, and harassment is a form of law I could support. I don't think it's evil - those PJ people are really well-meaning - it's just ineffective. From what I understand, LE sees them as a harmless crew of lonely zealots with occasionally useful information. My father is a cop, and he wonders why these poor people just don't go out and become real officers.
I guess the victims of their harassment don't see it as harmless, but like you, I haven't much sympathy for men who try to meet up with a 12-14 year old girl. I do however, have a lot of respect for the trained, educated, and disciplined men and women of law enforcement, and for the law itself.
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Message 146252 (In Reply to Message 146207)
valdosta2
Posted by LockEmUp
on Feb 26, 2005 05:03 PM | Also by LockEmUp
| Gender: Male,
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State: New Jersey,
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Thanks for the reply. I respect the law, as well, and applaud the efforts of honest police officers. Of what I've read on the PJ site, most of the "busts" aren't referred to LE, but handled by the site members. I see your point about what you call "harassment" (postering, etc.), but it is not a form of law, but a form of informing others that a friend, family member, or co-worker likes to "date" children. I disagree with you about the notifications being ineffective. Most of the busts have the same argument as RSOs regarding their information being posted; they do not like it. That's understandable, but like I stated in my last post - if you do not want to be exposed as a child stalker, do not stalk children.
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Message 146253 (In Reply to Message 146201)
Posted by steve
on Feb 26, 2005 05:05 PM | Also by steve
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I'm a registered member of PJ (and CJ incidentally). I wanted to learn more about PJ and then later CJ when I found out about it. If you reread my message, you'll see that I wasn't questioning PJ's methods. Whether I agree with their actions, motivations and methods or not was not relevant to my message. I was simply restating what orolan said and agreeing with orolan that it is trivial to alter a chat log or create an entirely false chat log. The scenario orolan described to frame someone would be easy to pull off. That doesn't mean the accused would never be able to produce evidence to refute the claims and it doesn't mean there aren't legitimate stings with legitimate evidence. I hope that better explains what I was trying to say.
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Message 146264 (In Reply to Message 146253)
steve
Posted by LockEmUp
on Feb 26, 2005 08:44 PM | Also by LockEmUp
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Thanks for clearing that up. I'll take your word, and that of Orolan, that a chat could be fabricated to set someone up. That task is not needed at this point in time, as there are plenty of people providing legitimate chats attempting to hook up with minors. I also do not agree with everything that is done there, as some contributors seem to go a little overboard at times, but overall I support the site, and the efforts of the volunteers there.
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Message 146281 (In Reply to Message 146253)
Posted by orolan
on Feb 27, 2005 04:02 PM | Also by orolan
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Sorry you got dragged into this. But thanks for the techno-support;-))
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Message 146283 (In Reply to Message 146201)
Posted by orolan
on Feb 27, 2005 04:15 PM | Also by orolan
| Gender: Male,
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I am a registered member of PJ
Are you a 'contributor'?
the busts that occur on PJ are followed up on quite thoroughly.
Then why only 9 arrests out of 600+ so-called 'busts'? Not very thorough if you ask me.
not to engage in sexually suggestive chats with minors
I agree completely. Thing is nobody is doing that, because everybody on PJ is an adult.
I don't worry though. I don't do chat or IM:-))
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Message 146285 (In Reply to Message 146264)
Posted by orolan
on Feb 27, 2005 04:23 PM | Also by orolan
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overall I support the site, and the efforts of the volunteers there.
I can understand and support in principal. But the site is entirely too controlled. If a contributor runs across a person seeking out a tryst with a minor, they should be able to simply call the police and let them take over. It's the showmanship that bothers me. The media attention on the individual, the knocking on the door with a "you've been busted, smile for the cameras".
You probably did not see my post about my teenage daughter pretending to be an adult seeking a lesbian tryst with a teenage girl. Now if one of PJ's contributors runs across her in a chat room and proceeds to talk to her about sex, whether she initiates it or not, you do realize that the contributor has just broken the law, right? The contributor is an adult, and my daughter is a minor. Doesn't really matter under the law who was pretending to be what. The adult has the responsibility under the law to 'know'. One day such a reverse-sting is going to bust PJ. And I will be the first to be ROTFLMAO.
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Message 146294 (In Reply to Message 146285)
orolan
Posted by LockEmUp
on Feb 27, 2005 08:53 PM | Also by LockEmUp
| Gender: Male,
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State: New Jersey,
Country: United States |
I can understand and support in principal. But the site is entirely too controlled. If a contributor runs across a person seeking out a tryst with a minor, they should be able to simply call the police and let them take over.
That would be nice, but as I'm sure you have read, the police do not always follow through based on the efforts of vigilante sites.
It's the showmanship that bothers me.
I agree they sometimes take it too far; especially on those who do not go to actually meet their alleged underage dates.
I did not see the chat involving your daughter, nor do I know the exact law or laws regarding chats, as I am not a volunteer. If I decide to become one, that would be a good thing to check out before trying to contribute. Thanks.
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Message 146295 (In Reply to Message 146283)
orolan
Posted by LockEmUp
on Feb 27, 2005 09:06 PM | Also by LockEmUp
| Gender: Male,
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State: New Jersey,
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Are you a 'contributor'?
No, I am mostly a viewer.
Then why only 9 arrests out of 600+ so-called 'busts'?
I honestly have no idea. It actually might work out better this way. I'm hoping the people who PJ exposes that do not get arrested, will learn from their negative experience. Lesson learned, and no arrest record - as I said....hopefully lol.
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Message 147929 (In Reply to Message 134448)
Posted by monkey4u
on Mar 24, 2005 04:27 AM | Also by monkey4u
| Gender: Female,
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State: Texas,
Country: United States |
yes
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Message 149438 (In Reply to Message 138928)
This is sick
Posted by littlebird
on Apr 11, 2005 11:26 PM | Also by littlebird
| Gender: Female,
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Country: United States |
I have mixed emotions about this subject. The one thing I do know is that HP does not need children living in his home. He says he only looks, what child molester has ever came out and said that they are what they are? I think anyone who gets their jollies over children no matter the age needs their eyes poked out. If I were his wife he would not be happily married any longer and would never see his son again. HOW CAN ANYONE BE TURNED ON BY A CHILD?????????
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Message 151529 (In Reply to Message 134448)
absolutely
Posted by dbac
on May 10, 2005 02:40 AM | Also by dbac
| Gender: Male,
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State: Alabama,
Country: United States |
it oughta be legal to kill em. that'd be a servus to sosiaty. were i live in Alabama we dont take kindly to any of em
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Message 151561 (In Reply to Message 151529)
Posted by orolan
on May 10, 2005 05:47 PM | Also by orolan
| Gender: Male,
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You evidently don't take too kindly to going to school either in your part of Alabama. What happened with you? Quit in 5th grade because you got your sister pregnant?
What's a virgin in Alabama?
A ten year-old with no brothers.
Bring it on, Alabama gap-tooth redneck. I'll put you down before you even know I'm there.
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Message 151572 (In Reply to Message 151561)
Posted by dp1
on May 10, 2005 10:26 PM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
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State: Florida,
Country: United States |
You evidently don't take too kindly to going to school either in your part of Alabama. What happened with you? Quit in 5th grade because you got your sister pregnant?
Evidently he isn't a sex offender and obviously has enough sense at the 5th grade level not to boink his sis.
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Message 151708 (In Reply to Message 151529)
Posted by orolan
on May 14, 2005 04:32 AM | Also by orolan
| Gender: Male,
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Typical. A bunch of mouth, no backbone.
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Message 151935 (In Reply to Message 134487)
Absoultely Not
Posted by mysticfyre
on May 18, 2005 05:34 PM | Also by mysticfyre
| Gender: Female,
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State: Florida,
Country: United States |
For those in society who take matters in there own hands not only do you affect the one who was convicted of these crimes but it also affects the person's family who they are living with, or who lives with them. When private vigilantes start taking these matters in there own hands they will come to be the ones addicted to the same very thing that half of the Investigators get addicted to, and then we have a bigger problem then what is needed. Each Sex Crime has been categorized the same and they are nor more the same then any other crimes in this country for example we have more then one charge for murders, why should this be any different?If for some reason private vigilantes feel the need to be more concerned about what is going on in society then they need to pay attention to what there kids are viewing on the computers instead of using the concept of thinking my kid wouldnt do anything like that when in fact some children turn to adults for comfort outside there family hoping to find someone who will listen and comfort them when they need it. And yes there are kids that do this, and those that are in need of severe help that prey on our very own kids but if you pay attention to them then this problem wont get anymore out of control then it already is.
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Message 156451 (In Reply to Message 146252)
Posted by mawmaw
on Jul 17, 2005 08:15 AM | Also by mawmaw
| Gender: Female,
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State: Pennsylvania,
Country: United States |
YES! ....... if you do not want to be exposed as a child stalker, do not stalk children.
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Message 165813 (In Reply to Message 146060)
no
Posted by anti
on Oct 30, 2005 03:12 AM | Also by anti
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Country: United States |
I never hide, loll just missed it thats all, do not frequent here much, in spurts............
I feel all people need to help.
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Message 165814 (In Reply to Message 146283)
orlan
Posted by anti
on Oct 30, 2005 03:17 AM | Also by anti
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sorry, confused, are you saying you are a reg member of pj??
do they know you are a rso?
why do you choose to be there?
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Message 165815 (In Reply to Message 151561)
lol ohh my orlan, pleasee get a real life.
Posted by anti
on Oct 30, 2005 03:20 AM | Also by anti
| Gender: N/A,
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Country: United States |
wow, odd, he is(she?) speaking of so, and you have hate in you, why?
humm.... what a poor poor choice of words you tend to use, eh?
because someone is a pedo hater, does that make them bad?
so odd you would feel this way... NOT
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Thread
134448, admin, May 21, 2004 08:53 AM [Introduction]
134470, mystik, May 21, 2004 08:06 PM [Absolutely not]
134487, Navigatr1, May 21, 2004 10:13 PM
151935, mysticfyre, May 18, 2005 05:34 PM [Absoultely Not]
134575, LostTime, May 22, 2004 11:26 PM [training]
138501, serenity2004, Aug 08, 2004 07:32 AM [mystik]
138508, dp1, Aug 08, 2004 03:17 PM [serentity2004]
138928, HPierce, Aug 19, 2004 10:10 PM [They do it anyway]
139310, artie, Sep 01, 2004 12:58 AM [agree]
144302, anti, Jan 22, 2005 06:07 PM [re hp, sick as usual...]
144329, oioi, Jan 22, 2005 09:23 PM [HPierce]
146026, texas, Feb 23, 2005 06:24 AM
146060, texas, Feb 23, 2005 04:52 PM
146118, LockEmUp, Feb 24, 2005 02:06 PM [texas]
146127, orolan, Feb 24, 2005 05:37 PM
146131, LockEmUp, Feb 24, 2005 09:01 PM [orolan]
146147, orolan, Feb 25, 2005 01:14 AM
146156, LockEmUp, Feb 25, 2005 04:07 AM [orolan]
146158, steve, Feb 25, 2005 04:56 AM
146201, LockEmUp, Feb 25, 2005 05:14 PM [steve]
146253, steve, Feb 26, 2005 05:05 PM
146264, LockEmUp, Feb 26, 2005 08:44 PM [steve]
146285, orolan, Feb 27, 2005 04:23 PM
146294, LockEmUp, Feb 27, 2005 08:53 PM [o...]
146281, orolan, Feb 27, 2005 04:02 PM
146283, orolan, Feb 27, 2005 04:15 PM
146295, LockEmUp, Feb 27, 2005 09:06 PM [orolan]
165814, anti, Oct 30, 2005 03:17 AM [orlan]
146207, valdosta2, Feb 25, 2005 08:49 PM
146252, LockEmUp, Feb 26, 2005 05:03 PM [valdosta2]
156451, mawmaw, Jul 17, 2005 08:15 AM
165813, anti, Oct 30, 2005 03:12 AM [no]
146036, myoung, Feb 23, 2005 01:45 PM [never tell oioi]
146052, 1dadof5, Feb 23, 2005 03:38 PM
149438, littlebird, Apr 11, 2005 11:26 PM [This is sick]
138930, Rejected
147929, monkey4u, Mar 24, 2005 04:27 AM
151529, dbac, May 10, 2005 02:40 AM [absolutely]
151561, orolan, May 10, 2005 05:47 PM
151572, dp1, May 10, 2005 10:26 PM
165815, anti, Oct 30, 2005 03:20 AM [lol ohh my orlan, pleasee get a real life.]
151708, orolan, May 14, 2005 04:32 AM
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