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Forum: In the News
Thread (Discussion): [Tampa Bay's 10 News] Teacher Debra LaFave now a sex offender - Maybe you are right, Orolan.
Message 167830
Introduction
Posted by admin
on Nov 22, 2005 01:58 PM | Also by admin
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Discuss the article Teacher Debra LaFave now a sex offender, which appeared on Tampa Bay's 10 News on November 22, 2005.
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Message 168421 (In Reply to Message 167830)
Does Debra understand the gravity of her situation?
Posted by pop1
on Dec 02, 2005 05:26 AM | Also by pop1
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As a Christian I am concerned about how well Debra understands her situation. I am concerned about the pictures of her in the news.
Her smiling concerns me greatly. She looks too pleased. Her situation is grave, perhaps more so than she appears to know. You see, I belong to a groujp of Christians who pray for her on line. She wears a cross indicating she wants to be a Chistian. We prayers want her to be a SAVED Christian. The first step to becoming saved is to understand one's sins and to sincerely confess them to God before witnesses. Her countenance in her pictures appears too pleased. Another thing that concerns me is that before both the boy and she can be forgiven by God (Mark 11:16) both must forgive each other face to face. Now when God forgives he forgets the sin. That means both the boy and Debra must forget their past sin and establish a healthy new Christian friendship. I have read nothing about her requesting her attorney and Church to arrange the setting. So I am much concerned about the Christian future of both the boy and Debra. How do you other Christians feel about their (the boy and Debra) Christian futures? What all should we Christians do,. besides pray, to help them? I really am concerned. Let me add a short PS. Some are about to say the boy is too young to do this sort of thing. God considers him ready at age 13 when he can participate in the worship of most Churches. .
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Message 168424 (In Reply to Message 168421)
Hello and Welcome
Posted by dp1
on Dec 02, 2005 02:48 PM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
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Debra is a sex offender. She cares about one thing and one thing only - herself. Can she be saved from herself? She could care less. You're living in a dream world if you think someone can cross the boundaries that she did to commit a felony sex offense then suddenly develope empathy for anything or anyone else besides herself just because she's now a member of the club.
I believe therapy can be more effective than prayer in cases like this. But sometimes neither works. Sorry, I'm not very hopeful in this case. We shouldn't lose our faith though since sometimes that's all we have left. Thanks for your thoughts.
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Message 168438 (In Reply to Message 168424)
Posted by rabbitreborn
on Dec 02, 2005 05:11 PM | Also by rabbitreborn
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I have to agree with you DP1, even her lawyers comments about the situtation cause me concern for just how serious they are taking this case. How can the lawyer make a comment like "she's too pretty to go to prison" and still say he is aware of just how serious her actions were?
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Message 168440 (In Reply to Message 168421)
Posted by Renunciation
on Dec 02, 2005 05:50 PM | Also by Renunciation
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In most cases the RSO on probation is forbidden from attending church.
In some cases the RSO on post-supervision supervision is forbidden from attending church.
In most cases, the terms and laws specifically identify those places as CHURCH, leaving mosques open for RSOs to attend.
This is why it is imperative that ALL Registered Sex Offenders, friends and family members consider strongly converting to Islam and attend as many prayers at mosque as possible.
Christians and Churches have ensured that CHURCHES are areas forbidden to RSOs, showing us that our faith and need to worship is less important than their "feeling" of safety.
Islam will welcome us, and Islam will show us the way to true healing and salvation through sacrifice and martydom. We can be atoned for our sins with Islam, and we are shunned by Christians.
And there are some places that say "places of worship" but mostly I see just Church.
I was baptised Lutheran, born full of sin, and apparently the baptism, being held on Valentines Day, was null and void and I was left to roam the earth, still full of evil and sin, running amok and cloaked in the seminal juices of Satan. At least that is how the Lutherans treat me now.........
Welcome to the site and Hope to see many more of your posts.
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Message 168445 (In Reply to Message 168424)
dp1, Could we share our observations?
Posted by pop1
on Dec 02, 2005 07:08 PM | Also by pop1
| Gender: Male,
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Hello dp1. I see you yourself are from Florida That puts you at the geographic source. Could it be that you have ground information?
I would enjoy hearing it. You may even know Debra. Through the media I note she led a series of romances through her teens, all of which seem to have been broken romances. When her unmarried sister was killed she was pregnate. So Debra apparantly grew up in a recreational sex surrounding (hedonistic). That to me means she had no opportunity to learn anything except deeds of the flesh. According to Fitzgibbons she herself was sexually assulted when she was young. So you don't believe a change of venus would alter her spirit. I respect your opinion. Perhaps were I knowledgable about your observations I would join you with your opinion. I'm anxious to hear more from you. Elsewhere on prayer sites I am known as Gramps because I have many granddaughters of whom I am very proud. They are Debra's contemporaries. Perhaps I have some wishful hope for Debra that's not too realistic. Yet ..may we talk? Love in Christ, pop1..
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Message 168474 (In Reply to Message 168445)
Posted by orolan
on Dec 03, 2005 12:45 AM | Also by orolan
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Through the media I note she led a series of romances through her teens, all of which seem to have been broken romances.
What teen hasn't? I did. Did you? Rare is the 8th-grade crush that turns in to a lifelong marriage and commitment.
So Debra apparantly grew up in a recreational sex surrounding (hedonistic).
I grew up in a nudist/naturist surrounding capped off by 4 1/2 years in a foreign country where being married at 14 and having a couple children by 18 is the norm not the exception and marijuana (Acapulco Gold no less) was available for 100 pesos a kilo ($5 bucks). Doesn't get any more "recreational" than that.
That to me means she had no opportunity to learn anything except deeds of the flesh.
I see. Funny you should say that. Because my mother and stepfather were missionaries in that country where sex started early and drugs were easily available. I was partaking of both. Yet I had ample opportunity to learn plenty besides "deeds of the flesh". I smoked marijuana to give me strength as I hiked 40 miles up into the mountains to carry the Word to Mixteco Indians who had never even seen a cigarette lighter and thought the Aeromexico jets flying overhead at 30,000 feet were the Great Spirit's messengers.
I respect your opinion.
After what I've said above, will you respect mine?
Curious if you pray for ALL sex offenders? Or just the "pretty ones"? Do you and your groups pray for John Couey's soul as well? Do you pray that Mark Lunsford will one day forgive him, since the alternative is to be barred entrance to heaven? Do you pray that Joseph Smith will get right with God before he meets Ol' Sparky?
Debra LeFave, as DP1 said, thinks only of herself. That is quite evident. Yes, it is difficult to go from recently convicted offender to empathetic remorseful offender. I know because it's been nearly 9 years and I'm still not there yet. A lot closer than I was 3 years ago, but still a long way to go. And I wasn't smiling when I got sentenced. Now if I was already headed in the right direction and STILL haven't arrived, how long do you suppose it will take LeFave to even realize she's walking in the wrong direction before she can turn around and get started in the right one?
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Message 168477 (In Reply to Message 168421)
christians
Posted by poetsdreamscape
on Dec 03, 2005 01:35 AM | Also by poetsdreamscape
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religion plays no part in rehabilitating. In fact most people who call themselves christians are the first to hang rso.How can one ask to be part of a faith of any kind that people of the same faith condems another human being to hell.Where does religion lay with politicians who created these laws? Do they not understand forgiveness or even compassion which is taught?
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Message 168510 (In Reply to Message 168440)
Posted by 1dadof5
on Dec 03, 2005 06:11 PM | Also by 1dadof5
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welcome pop. It is truly refreshing to see a true christian on this site.
many claim to be, but thier actions and posts show otherwise.
Some hear forgive and pray for sinners at church on sundays, but leave the service to condemn, hate and mock those that they feel are the scum of the earth. I was molested by a deacon and a youth minister so I know of the hippocrates first hand.
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Message 168534 (In Reply to Message 168477)
Posted by orolan
on Dec 03, 2005 10:21 PM | Also by orolan
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religion plays no part in rehabilitating.
Nope. Because "religion" is a product of Man. Peter created the Catholic Church, Paul created the "Christian" church and Mohammed created Islam. Considering that all three "religions" profess to follow the same God and yet they seem to hate each other, it's easy to see the hypocrisy. Love and obey God. Forget religion.
Granted, like-minded lovers of God who choose to bond together in a church are good for rehabilitation. That support and encouragement they can and do give is invaluable. But that isn't "religion". That's called "friends".
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Message 168567 (In Reply to Message 168534)
My religion is with Jesus; my friendship is with all of you; enough?
Posted by pop1
on Dec 04, 2005 03:49 AM | Also by pop1
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To all of my friends who have responded to my Debra Lafave posting I write this to you.
For some reason I as a Christian feel an obligation to do some explaining. Only because I look upon you as friends do I endeavor to oblige. I have been a HOT Christian (Rev 3:16) for only a few years. Before that I was a luke-warm Christian (hypocrite). My allegiance reaches out to the Spirit, Scriptures and to Jesus. From there it embraces people who seem referred to me by the Spirit. As far as Church is concerned I belong to a reformed protestant congragation.
Now, how did I become affiliated with Jesus? That;s a long story that started in 1937 when I was a nitwit, a high schol student. There I was an immature abomination worst confounded. There also I had the best possible girl friend. Though dead she still is my best friend. In 2002 near the beginning Joanne returned to my memory system like a bolt of lightning. Before that I had fogotten her; since then she has stayed etched everywhere within my mind, heart and soul. Though she died in 1970 she now is with me permanently. This I swear wth all my flesh and spirit. Now if all of you study Deut 18:10, Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 and Isaiah 8:19 we learn tha when we die we forget everything we learneed under the Sun. Yet when we read Mark 9:2-4 (Transfiguration scene) Jesus can bring spirits back under the Sun. Luke 36:39 demonstrates that Jesus knew incredibly much about Spirits. The reason these scriptures warm my heart is because when Joanne came back to me I felt an unusual closeness to Jesus. So I reason, not to prove anything, that when Joanne returned to me she was accompanied by Jesus. Now this is my reasoning to myself and not to the world. So I have felt close to Jesus only since 2002. This is a story NOT FOR YOU TO BELIEVE, BUT THE TRUTH FOR ME TO BELIEVE. So be it!
NOW, How did I get started praying for Debra Beasley Lafave. That too is a long story which I will try to shorten. Before WW!! I took teacher training in what then was called a PA state teachers college.
At that time teaching was taught like a religion. We were trained to believe that ONCE A TEACHER; ALWAYS A TEACHER. In 2004 I saw Debra in the news and I got madder than a wet hen. I HATED THAT WOMEN! I hated her because she had removed herselr from teaching by becoming a criminal. SHE CHANGED FROM TEACHER TO CRIMINAL IN LESS THAN A WEEK! HOW DARE HER TO DO THAT! Then something hqppened. It happened within me. I don't know whether it was a voice or a half-ton hammer. The message was strong and definite. So strong it was it gave me a lasting headache. The message was that I had to pray for her. Very definate and very strong! PRAY FOR SOMEONE I HATED? YES! That's it in a monster of a crab shell, believe me. Now understand that I taught school for 34 years. I always write this way.
NOW you read my first posting. You know my concerns about Debra, but WOW, you guys are teaching me much more. I'm still in the mist of digesting it and even masticating it. My prayers now are aimed toward you, your opinions, experiences and more. Do you kind folks assemble face to face with this data you have that stirs
ideas in my head. What would happen if someone like Debra Lafave were in a conversational circle with folks like you? Don't answer. I just have to pry around some. Debra still is Momma's little girl who does not even know herself. Hey, I'm getting back to you. Give me a few days. OK? Forgive me for being an 87+ year old retired teacher. This is how we often phase in and out, but I have got to think how to get your kind of data posted in high places. Maybe I will come up with something, maybe not; just let me try.
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Message 168575 (In Reply to Message 168445)
pop
Posted by dp1
on Dec 04, 2005 07:31 AM | Also by dp1
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I'd be curious in knowing why you selected Debra to focus on. I mean out of all the RSOs in this world, what makes her so special? I've worked in sex crimes for many years and have years of experience with working high profile cases. Debra is just another case as far as I can see. She's a perv who happens to have a pretty face and the media loves her because her story sells papers. Other than that, what's the fascination? Just curious. And why pray for her? She knew what she was doing was wrong and did it anyway. Just another criminal....that's like what they do.
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Message 168582 (In Reply to Message 167830)
Reply to dp1
Posted by pop1
on Dec 04, 2005 08:08 PM | Also by pop1
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Dear dp1, I first must say I still am checking on something all of you friends have awakened in me. Now to dp1, you're curious about my praying for Debra and I am curious about your work. For 34 years I taught in special education with interest in troubled children. Now I find personal interest in troubled people. About my interest in Debra it's filled with questions. Earlier I think I explained why I am praying for her. I don't know her as you probably do, but am led by the spirit. Why God wants me to pray for her? He hasn't told me ...and here I am not trying to be impudent. I mean it. I don't know why, but someow I get the feeling He does want her for something. Only time will tell. I do notice she now wears a cross. As a Christian I am forbidden to speculate negatively; I have to accept what I see with an open mind. Now from Orolan I learn about the stuggle from waywardness to predictiveness. In Christianity we call that the difference between OUR WAY and HIS WAY. For some, OUR WAY can become criminal. But God puts all sin into one bushel basket. Sins are not weighted and when we sin in one way, we automatically sin in all ways. So we have no way to being SAVED except through Jesus Christ. That's US! That's the way we believe.
With us there is no rehabilitation; our aim is to be saved. And we are talking about soul saving. So my praying in no way interfers with your rehabilitation programs. Christian praying and rehabilitation programs can progress concurrently. I know because I use to participate in Health Dpt/Education Dpt rehabilitation programs for children. In those days, however, I was unaware of sex offending mentality. And in Christianity I am taught only about the deeds of the flesh as opposed to those of the Spirit (Galatians Chapter 5).
Now, a question to you, dp1. Why isn't the media doing more to inform the public about your rehabilitation programs, locally and nationally? That's the question I plan to ask some newspapers. Whether I get an answer is moot, to say the least. How do you as a therapist stay on top of the needs of people like Orolan? In my 34 years of teaching I am not sure that I did. I look back with some degree of guilt in my heart. What you say? Love in Christ, pop1.
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Message 168593 (In Reply to Message 168567)
religion bs
Posted by poetsdreamscape
on Dec 04, 2005 09:49 PM | Also by poetsdreamscape
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we are all mommas little girls and boys but she is still a sex offender. I am still up[set that she got zero prison time and the reason is beacuse of her beauty? I swear i read that somewhere. If she was a he and he was a beauty im sure the judge would have no problem send that beautiful man to prison to get a tatse of what prison sex is like for touching a child. maybe you should focus your prayers on having more women sent to prison the same as men are.I dont care if you are a man or women if you sexually have contact with a child then prison it is.Perhaps she may have found god while serving time.I only pray that she is violated and sent to prison and suffer the same fate many men do. Then and only then will I believe in fairness of our justice system.
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Message 168611 (In Reply to Message 168593)
reply to poetsdreamscape
Posted by pop1
on Dec 05, 2005 03:32 AM | Also by pop1
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State: Tennessee,
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Dear poetsdreamscape. I must confess that, as human as I am, for a short while I followed a Tampa prayer group which prayed that she be put into a treatment center rather than prison. Then I rightfully got back to scriptures. In a country that allows Christianity to exist a Christian is to be grateful and not use prayer to tell the government what to do. Immediatey I stopped. We pray for the saving of the soul, not how a criminal is to be punished. If God wants to use a person or take him or her into paradise, such as the one man crucified next to Christ, it will not effect how the judiciary wants to punish that person. In all honestly I feel prison may have been to Debra's benefit. The bars may knocked some sense into her head. That, or course, is questiojnable speculation. About the double standard, that is another aspect needing attention. Yes, of course, Debra is a criminal. When I talk about possible causes of her criminal ways I am dating myself because I was trained back in the Freudian days just prior to WW!!.
Thank you for your challenge. pop1
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Message 168633 (In Reply to Message 168582)
Pops
Posted by dp1
on Dec 05, 2005 12:11 PM | Also by dp1
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Why isn't the media doing more to inform the public about your rehabilitation programs, locally and nationally? That's the question I plan to ask some newspapers. Whether I get an answer is moot, to say the least. How do you as a therapist stay on top of the needs of people like Orolan? In my 34 years of teaching I am not sure that I did. I look back with some degree of guilt in my heart. What you say?
Great questions Pops. I'm interested in what type of inquires you would pose to the media and the reactions. Some people believe treatment works and others don't. Others believe prison is the only answer. I'd like to see a bigger push towards intervention. We do have some offenders who recognized they had a problem before they were caught or acted out. It sure sould be nice if they were somehow encouraged to get help before they hurt their victim. I'll let the offenders talk about why they can't or wouldn't get help before it was too late.
Pops, I'm a Parole Officer not a therapist. But, your point is still the same as far as working with needy people, meeting their needs or lack thereof and possibly facing guilt down the road. This is how I see it. We are all going to make mistakes whether it was intentional or not. Some of us will learn from our mistakes. Some people who learn from their mistakes adjust their behavior and the others will continue to make mistakes. Some people who adjusted their behavior get it right and the others make new mistakes. So on and so forth.
Somewhere during the cycle of your career you retired Pops. It's easy to look back and think about how you could have done things; better, smarter, more efficient, and so on. When dealing with humans you had little control over their behavior yet were in a position of authority to make an impression upon their young minds. I know in my position I think about how I can better treat people, how I can deepen my empathy for both victims and offenders, how I can learn as much as possible about a topic so I can minimize stupid errors, and most of all how I can keep myself surrounded by excellent mentors who will continue to guide me in the right direction through rough times. Most of the time making decisions is easy. All we have to do is look at a manual, policy or law book. Other times decisions can be difficult to make. What it boils down to is professional ethics. If you are a person who has struggled with this in the past, which I suspect you are, then most definately a situation like Debra's is enough to peg out your 'pissed off' meter.
Debra is a human being. So are all the RSOs on this forum as well as the other half million or so on the registries. You are in a position to identify with Debra probably because you shared the same love of teaching. I can assure you that most sex offenders are regular people just like Debra, you and me. They are attractive, smart, loving, caring, rich, poor, educated with lives, homes, wives, kids, jobs, etc...Sexual deviancy doesn't only effect a certain group of people. Pull up the registries and look at the pictures. Sure there are some pretty ugly mug shots on the internet, but they are no different than the scary people you see at Wal-Mart.
So tell as about some of the guilt you may feel about your profession. Do you mean mistakes that maybe you made personally or maybe about abuse of children you could have avoided?
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Message 168634 (In Reply to Message 168593)
Posted by dp1
on Dec 05, 2005 12:24 PM | Also by dp1
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I pray that her probation officer continues to do the fine job that he always has and makes time for the extra special attention she's been starving for all of her life:-))
Sometimes ya just gotta admit that the zero tolerance policy is great especially with these types of cases on GPS.
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Message 168646 (In Reply to Message 167830)
Good article about Lafave's Sentence
Posted by dp1
on Dec 05, 2005 02:29 PM | Also by dp1
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http://news.tbo.com/news/MGBXH0H5UGE.html
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Message 168681 (In Reply to Message 168575)
Another try to dp1.
Posted by pop1
on Dec 06, 2005 04:54 AM | Also by pop1
| Gender: Male,
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State: Tennessee,
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This is my second try. I hope I don't lose it again before I'm finish. I hope the same thougts can be formulated. dp1, I have to pray for Debra Lafave. Already I have lost the thread of my original thought.
So let's turn to Isaiah 6:5 and try from a different thread. In this passage God forgave even one with unclean lips after burning coals burned his lips. Thus he was convicted and then repented. After that his sin was forgiven, in fact forgotten. I've lost the reference for my next thought, but, if Debra becomes saved and then commits another sin like her 2004 sin she will be cast from God's sight. For her then I would have to stop praying. I'm sorry I've lost the reference here. Another time, certainly. Orolan has made it clear to me that I should pray for all sex offenders. So from now on I will let the name of Debra Lafave represent ALL. Now I had more in my lost message which I will have to recall and send later. By the way you said a powerful thing at the end of your first message. Paraphased it said we must hold the faith because that might be all we have left.
To me that is filled with Spirit. Sounds much to me that you should join us prayers. Why not search for http:www.workingmom.com There you will get listed 10 items. One will read The PrayStation. Click on it. Follow the instructions for registering. It's free and very uncomplicated. Look over the prayer requests and prayers until you feel the Spirit enter you. It will! From there just follow the Spirit. Love in Christ, pop1.
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Message 168682 (In Reply to Message 168582)
pop1
Posted by rodsmith
on Dec 06, 2005 07:22 AM | Also by rodsmith
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hate to be the one to break it to you but unless something has changed in the last few years...florida has no sex offender treatment in prison..so even if she was sent to prison she would come out just as messed up as when she went in....and of course they are then suprised and angered when she goes back to what she knew before...
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Message 168704 (In Reply to Message 168681)
Pops
Posted by dp1
on Dec 07, 2005 03:15 AM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
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State: Florida,
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How does praying for sex offenders teach them how to live life without sexually offending? Prayer only goes so far. I don't look at it spiritually in most cases. I have seen people (very few) that are so totally evil that it does make me wonder if they are possessed by the devil. Incarceration is usually more effective than prayer in those cases. Sex offenders made bad choices and simply need to learn to think before they act. Education and counseling usually does the trick. Do you agree? Or do believe that if they are not saved they will commit another crime?
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Message 168743 (In Reply to Message 168646)
Posted by rabbitreborn
on Dec 07, 2005 03:11 PM | Also by rabbitreborn
| Gender: Male,
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State: Florida,
Country: United States |
"Sometimes, it's like a building inspector," Fitzgibbons said. "If you look hard enough, you can find a violation or two."
Is he trying to lay the groundwork for a future defense of Lafave??
Seriously though, it was a good article. I spent 1 year on CC and I would have to say that it is actually HARDER than doing Prison time (of course I never did prison time so it's just my opinion based on others reports of their time in prison). At least in prison, you don't have to worry as much about violating a rule because everything you do is monitored 24/7. While on CC you are SOOOO tempted to forget that walking out your front door to go to the neighbors and borrow a movie to watch can (and likely will) get you sent to prison. I had 2 VERY good CC officers, and if either of them knocked on my door and I didn't answer, they would call me. Maybe they only did this because I lived in a townhouse with the bedrooms upstairs?
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Message 168782 (In Reply to Message 168743)
Posted by dp1
on Dec 07, 2005 06:09 PM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
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Surviving on community control without getting violated and sent to prison takes a lot of discipline. My hat's off to you Rabbit. I know it wasn't easy.
Debra will have 3 years of CC and the entire supervision period is with GPS. That's not an easy sentence by any stretch although I would have prefered some prison or a suspended sentence at least.
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Message 168789 (In Reply to Message 168634)
Reply to two of dp1 messages
Posted by pop1
on Dec 07, 2005 06:50 PM | Also by pop1
| Gender: Male,
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State: Tennessee,
Country: United States |
Dear dp1, thank you for your prayer that Debra gets one specific probation officer. Now, about prayers teaching. We cannot equte praying to teaching. Praying is a spiritual act; it asks God to intervene. If it is His will, he will. We are just lowly humans and do not have the wisdom of God. When we pray we do not know whether we pray for the right thing or at the right time. We just pray in faith. Without the faith we waist time when we pray. To pray at the right time we just keep praying repeatedly. To recap, prayers are not for teaching but for praying for God to act. Forgive me, I have to leave now on family businjess. Love in Christ, pop1
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Message 168801 (In Reply to Message 168782)
Posted by rabbitreborn
on Dec 07, 2005 08:32 PM | Also by rabbitreborn
| Gender: Male,
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State: Florida,
Country: United States |
I did 1 year CC followed by 2 on Probation.... Let me tell you, the day I started Probation was a VERY emotional day for me.... I struggled all through the CC because the temptation to walk out the front door was ALWAYS there. It was made even worse by the fact that I did not have Electronic Monitoring, so that was one less thing to "worry" about had I chosen to go for a drive or anything else.... Funny thing about it though, after I was released from CC and started my Probation, the officer had to remind me not to come by once a week but rather to come by once a month. I had gotten so used to turning in my weekly schedule that I was doing it for about 3 months into the probation part of my sentence....
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Message 168822 (In Reply to Message 168789)
Forgive me.
Posted by pop1
on Dec 07, 2005 10:58 PM | Also by pop1
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Tennessee,
Country: United States |
Dear dp1, My mother always taught me about haste making waste.
Too often I forget. Forgive me, please. I should not have tried to write that last message with hurry in the air. I even mispelled two words, equate and waste. Again I ask you to forgive me...Let me broaden the Christian prospective in the area of teaching and rehabilitation. Let's start with the word, HELP, a two edged sword, but powerful. The broadest concept extends all the way from self-centered to universal. I feel sure Debra concerns herself only about self help. A person with an alive spirit concerns himself/herself about the spiritual outlook that takes in everybody. A whole approach with much empathy for others. A prayer filled with the spirit is like a persojn with a heart of gold. He/she constantly feels warmth for others before self. For those you call criminala I pray that God enlivens their spirit. Why? With a dormant spirit one is nothing but a bundle of flesh which is dust to dust. dp1, I have rfamily business coming up again. So, Love in Christ to you. pop1.
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Message 168846 (In Reply to Message 168474)
Orolan, I like you but ...
Posted by pop1
on Dec 08, 2005 01:42 AM | Also by pop1
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Tennessee,
Country: United States |
Orolan, From your message I got the feeling you were more interested in my faults as a Christian than in the Christian perspective on criminality. Orolan, I have many, many faults because I am human. About Debra you noted she laughed when she was sentenced. You then said you didn't laugh when you were sentenced. You made me feel you were more interested in TIME than in what Christians call repentance. Orolan, when you do feel progress as you have for the past three years what feelings do you havre in your heart. Do you feel something INSIDE, or are you concerned only with the mechanical progress on the OUTSIDE? I'm just curious, Orolan. You see, as a Christian, I have to be concerned more about all that INSIDE stuff. If there is genuine peace felt in the heart, things on the Earth's surface will take care of themselves. That, at least, is the way a hot Christian feels. When one feels peace on the INSIDE, free of guilt, he doesn't worry about the OUTSIDE. What say you? Within the last three years have you felt a peace? A PEACE BEYOND ALL UNDERSTANDING? For you, Orolan, I am praying for that wonderful peace. Love in Christ, pop1.
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Message 168856 (In Reply to Message 168633)
Hey, dp1, thank you!
Posted by pop1
on Dec 08, 2005 02:44 AM | Also by pop1
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Tennessee,
Country: United States |
Dear dp1, I just read this informative message. I loved it. About my guilt. We had so few programs then. Often money stopped programs before goals were fulfilled. There were so much politics that troubled the mind. Particularly in the 60s and 70s when the federal government programs were initiated we spent more time counting heads than in teaching and therapy all because the local government wanted federal money. As a matter of fact I retired in June, 1980 when I was 62 because I couldn't take more of the political involvements. The memory of one case still gives me bad dreams. I was given an eight year old boy because he stuttered. It didn't take long to discover the father beat the mother, the mother beat the boy and the principal beat after me because the boy still stuttered. Then the camel's rear became cooked when the father committed incest on the boy's 15 yrar old sister. Then the boy's stuttering worsened something terrible. Don't ask me more questions about this case. I want to sleep tonight. That was one experience that proved stuttering for some does result from horrible cause and effects. Fluency modification methods of treatment did not work for Tommy. He had to be transferred to a psychotherapeutical program in a hospital. I love talking to you, dp1, but it is getting late. Love in Christ, pop1. Incidentally I never became a speech path, but was grandfathered into it. I never cared to become paramedical because I was in love with education. And speech path did start off as speech correction teacher with an education base. Good night again!
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Message 168932 (In Reply to Message 168856)
pops
Posted by dp1
on Dec 08, 2005 04:13 PM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
I understand what you are saying. I have seen many horror stories. Most things are out of our control. I know you probably look back on situations and wish you had done this, or that, or whatever. That's totally understandable. If we all knew back then what we know today none of this would be an issue. Being human has so many limitations, eh?
Have you ever thought about where little Tommy is today? I swear I've seen little parts of him in grown men labeled RSOs. Do you hear what I am saying? Dealing with adults isn't all that different. There is a little Tommy in a lot of RSO men if you stop and think about it. I look and see the Tommy in RSOs and work from that point forward. Can you relate? Maybe some of us in the criminal justice field pick up where you left off. Only Tommy can control when he's ready to come out and play.
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Message 168936 (In Reply to Message 168822)
pops
Posted by dp1
on Dec 08, 2005 04:25 PM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
You're a kind man pops. I'm not big into mixing religion and criminality/sexual deviance or otherwise. I do think your experiences as a teacher can be most enlightening and helpful when dealing with RSO.
I'd be willing to bet you saw many examples of children in dysfunctional families who grew up to be RSO. Your observations would be priceless.
I had a neighbor who was a teacher that worked with handicapped children. She would be mortified at some of the abuse she heard about. I often wondered what else she could do to intervene. The options seem so limiting. I'm not sure I could do her job without wanting to kill a few people. But, on the flipside, the positive rewards must make it all worth it in the end.
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Message 168996 (In Reply to Message 167830)
Marion County Complicates Debbie Does Home Detention Chances
Posted by Renunciation
on Dec 08, 2005 11:21 PM | Also by Renunciation
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: Bahrain |
http://www.tampabays10.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=22388
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Message 169003 (In Reply to Message 168846)
Posted by orolan
on Dec 09, 2005 12:01 AM | Also by orolan
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
Orolan, From your message I got the feeling you were more interested in my faults as a Christian than in the Christian perspective on criminality.
Sorry you took it that way. I'm not interested in your personal faults.
Sin is sin, is it not? Are there "major" sins and "minor" sins? Or are all sins equal in the eyes of God? Is the "Christian perspective" on criminality different than the perspective on blasphemy? Gluttony? Pride?
What exactly is the "Christian perspective" on crime? Is it what I see in the news all the time about sex offenders being thrown out of churches? Is it Jerry Falwell calling for mandatory castration? Pat Robertson calling for assassination of the President of Venezuela?
Or is it what I see every Sunday? A church with a pastor who lays brick all week long to pay the bills, drives an old truck instead of a new Cadillac, and has three registered sex offenders and a half-dozen other felons in his congregation? Here you have a black-and-white difference. Those in the other paragraph are "Christians". My pastor on the other hand has no need for such a label. He just loves and obeys God.
About Debra you noted she laughed when she was sentenced. You then said you didn't laugh when you were sentenced.
Precisely. I was overwhelmed with remorse and regret. She was tickled and thought it was all a big joke. Which judging by her sentence, it was.
You made me feel you were more interested in TIME than in what Christians call repentance. Time? That has nothing to do with how she and I felt on our respective sentencing days. As for repentance, are you trying to tell me that Debra has repented of her sins and she smiled because she was at peace with God about her crimes? Heck, I was at peace with God about mine. Didn't make me feel any better about what I had done. Sounds like you think that if a person kills someone and asks God for forgiveness and truly means it, they aren't supposed to feel bad about it?
What say you?
I feel great. Inside and out. I have no fear of facing God tomorrow should I die tonight. NONE of which has anything to do with my ability to empathize with victims of sexual abuse or to fully grasp the implications of my offense on my victim and her family. The two are not related.
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Message 169016 (In Reply to Message 168996)
Posted by dp1
on Dec 09, 2005 11:17 AM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
Let's pray that the Marion County Judge makes Debra do her Hillsborough County house arrest in the Florida State prison system. I'm sure DOC won't mind taking off her GPS equipment in the prison:-)) hehehe Ya gotta love it.
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Message 169019 (In Reply to Message 169016)
Posted by orolan
on Dec 09, 2005 02:35 PM | Also by orolan
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
hehehe Ya gotta love it.
Now she's going to plead insanity. That should be interesting. And a heck of a gamble. Because if she loses, she's got a one-way ticket to the FCCC. If she wins, she's also got a one-way ticket to the FCCC.
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Message 169034 (In Reply to Message 169019)
Posted by dp1
on Dec 09, 2005 03:39 PM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
But she's too pretty for the Jimmy Ryce Center!!!! lol
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Message 169059 (In Reply to Message 169034)
Posted by rodsmith
on Dec 09, 2005 06:35 PM | Also by rodsmith
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
i think it ought to be considered double jeopardy...if he was a part of the original sentence...and let the other judge hand it...then he needs to keep his mouth shut now...awful funny that he's coming out yelling about the results now that he's heard the public yelling. and this having the charge in 2 counties...i thought that was a state statute she had violated?.....i'm sure if 2 people were fighting and they fell across the county line you wouldn't be trying to charge them in both counties...one would take jurisdiction and handle it. so why is it legal to change that in a sex charge case?
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Message 169069 (In Reply to Message 169059)
Posted by Renunciation
on Dec 09, 2005 08:05 PM | Also by Renunciation
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: Bahrain |
I do not know all the details, but possibly it concerns the physical location where the crime took place? Maybe she boned this boy in both counties?
Interesting as well, I was charged with 2 crimes. The dates of charge one placed me in a different state that the state that charged me, while the crime did indeed occur and in the state doing the convictiong, they had the dates wrong. The convicting state had a lighter penalty, but maybe I should have taken that one to trial...... but I was chicken, lol, since my co-def pleaded I was fried.
The second charge was the same convicting state, but again, I was not in that state when the crime occured. I sent the X a link to a banner site, and the rotating banners contained illegal porn, which she viewed on the computer(she has asked me for the damn things), and I was charged with "causing to display" which of course, I was guilty, but I was not in the convicting state at the time, so maybe that should have been a federal charge. I sent the link from my laptop, which I left signed on to the internet all nightlong at work, so guys could listen to the NCAA basketball finals and I went about the site doing my job. I could have argued that someone else from the project sent her the link...... but again, I was scared.
So there you have it, I was "convicted" of 2 charges, both of which by the dates shown place me outside the convicting state, yet still charged.
My guess is that Debby went on a sexual free for all and had sex with this kid in two counties OR arranged to do so from both counties..........
This should be an interesting case because Debby is a perfect candidate for the Ryce Center if she is found criminally and sexually insane, yet she is clearly a predator who did not act insane.
R
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Message 169074 (In Reply to Message 169034)
Posted by rabbitreborn
on Dec 09, 2005 08:35 PM | Also by rabbitreborn
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
Oh I'm sure the inmates there are just going to LOVE her.....
Still raises the question for me though.... Does the Ryce Center seperate inmates by sex and age? Will she be required to attend classes with the male inmates? Wouldn't that be counterproductive to their rehabilitation?
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Message 169076 (In Reply to Message 167830)
To dp1
Posted by pop1
on Dec 09, 2005 09:02 PM | Also by pop1
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Tennessee,
Country: United States |
Dear dp1, I don't feel qualified to talk about court and all of that stuff. I am staying within the Christian perspective. dp1, are you familiar with her psychiatric illnhess. Manic depressive illness is a mental disorder. It falls under bipolar disorders with MASSIVE mood swings. Those swings now must be mounting to super mood swings. I have no idea how public schools accept such people in teaching. I wonder whether the school system's hiring methods should be studied by parents. Anyhow, to praying. Galatians 5 discusses how different are the deeds of the flesh compared to the virtues of the fruit of the Spirit. They are 180 degrees different. They are total opposites. From now on I will add to my prayers the request for God to enliven, bolster and warm Debra's spirit. Now understand we basically are spirits whether the world likes it or not. In Jeremiah 1:4-5 God says to each of us, "Before I formed you in the womb I KNEW YOU, and before you were born I consecrated you ..." Spiritually we were with God in The Creation and we will be with Him for an eternity after the flesh goes to the grave. We are immurred in flesh only during our lives under the Sun. We are without bodies much, much, much longer. So should't we give more concern to that part of ourselves that exists the longer? I feel certain that Debra and other sex offenders have no idea they are spirits. Now those of you who don't believe have a democratic right to reject this that I report. Debra, however, now wears a cross So I just pray that God gets the truth of Christ to her. Right now I feel certain Debra knows only her body, the flesh. So my prayers now will include the request that God makes her aware of her spirit, that he enlivens, bolsters and warms it with His love and that she be guided to USE the mind of the spirit along with her earthy mind. That's my message, dp1. Christ's love to you. pop1. .
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Message 169138 (In Reply to Message 169074)
Posted by orolan
on Dec 10, 2005 06:41 PM | Also by orolan
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
Wouldn't that be counterproductive to their rehabilitation?
Of course not. You forget your stereotypes. All sex offenders are into kids, remember?
Debra's too old for all those baby-rapers.
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Message 169344 (In Reply to Message 168936)
To dp1
Posted by pop1
on Dec 13, 2005 02:54 AM | Also by pop1
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Tennessee,
Country: United States |
dp1, Thank you for your message. I have a non-religious question. It's a question about a curiousity that has entered my mind. Note that I retired at 62 primarily because of politics entering the classroom. Could politics have something to do with Marion County rejecfting the sentence given by Hillsborough County court? Just curious. Now about a still further change in my praying for Debra Lafave.. Review the story about the prodical son. God allowed him to suffer so far as to eat sty slop. That's going pretty far, isn't it? But often God allows fallen ones to suffer a very long time before He convicts them. Look at Gomer, Hosea's wife. Again this poor woman fell far into the pit of hell before God let Hosea's love save her. The same is true of Jonah and others. So reviewing these Bible stories tells me that God may want Debra to go to prison before He convicts her. As I mentioned in my first message I have many concerns aboujt Debra, particvularly her fake angel smiles and croc-like tears. Debra doesn't show spirit. Instead she shows only fleshy ways. Really fleshy life styles. Now putting these concerns together seems to tell me that God may not be ready to answer our prayers for Debra. Debra first may have to have to find herself in a a desperate situation as did the prodical son. And prison just may be that desperate situation. Regardless, however, I still must continue praying with faith. The exception will be that I will guard myself against putting words into God's mouth. Now, to be sure, you are getting ideas about how I pray. Constantly I search and research scriptures for how I should pray. As I do this I constantly challenge how I pray and seek changes I should make Constantly this goes on. And I pray on how I should change. Already I have told you how I now pray for her to become more and more aware of her spirit and less aware of her flesh. To Orolan I now pray his analysis of his relationahsip with God is right. Yea, I'm concerned about him because I lke him. I want him to know my concerns about him are very few compared with my many, many concerns about Debra. After all, she went from teacher to criminal so fast I doubt if she realizes the gravity. I am sure she doesn't realize she has lost all dignity. About praying, this is the end for now. Have you thought more about praying? Aboujt my experiences as a teacher years ago I guess I could tell more. What more would you want me to tell? Something really wonderful just happened. One of my granddaujghters just graduated from college as a teacher.. Probably not fairly, but she now is my pet granddaughter. We talk much about today's teaching methods. Strangely they have taught her methds we used back years ago. So I have learned from her that methods come, go and come back again. She tells me they encourage a hands-on approach. Hey, that was called progressive education back after WW11. What a world? Love in Christ, pop1.
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Message 169376 (In Reply to Message 169344)
Added message to dp1
Posted by pop1
on Dec 13, 2005 03:57 PM | Also by pop1
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Tennessee,
Country: United States |
Dear dp1, it has just occurred to me that there was an underlying extrapolation to the basic philosophy of progressive education that would encourage some child-like young teachers to go over the edge in teaching hands-on education. If Debra was so inclined, she hopelessly still is a child in adult clothing. If this is true, prison could teach her to have a heart-felt and permanent love for criminals and criminal behavior. This particularly should be expected if psychiatrists find her extremely child-like in her basic or natural philosophy of life. I feel it mandatory for her to be psychiatrically examined before giving her a prison sentence. If she is still a child at heart, she may learn the very things in prison the judge doesn't want. After all, if she is still a child at heart, she then is extremely naive which she may be. Study her face exposures in the news. What is your take on them? Christ love to you, pop1.
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Message 169431 (In Reply to Message 169376)
pops
Posted by dp1
on Dec 14, 2005 03:10 AM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
So how would her situation be different from any other sex offender, child molester or pedophile? It seems to me that she wouldn't be unique as far as being child like compared to other sex criminals with victims that were minors. I'm not sure I am truly understanding your issue with placing criminals with criminals inside prison. What I hear you saying is that a sex offender who is immature or child like should not go to prison. With that said then where would we find mature sex offenders who are not child like? Only rapists should go to prison? Makes no sense to me.
I think the media got to ya Pops. Think of all those sex offenders in prison who were not lucky enough to be born with a pretty face like Debra. Do you honestly think none of them were child like when they molested their young victims? Do you really believe none of them are not bi-polar? Do you see what I am saying? Debra was educated. Not all sex offenders have college backgrounds. There's no excuse.
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Message 169438 (In Reply to Message 169431)
To dp1
Posted by pop1
on Dec 14, 2005 07:14 AM | Also by pop1
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Tennessee,
Country: United States |
Dear dp1 You and I have had two different sets of professional careers. It's not the media that has got to me, dp1; it's my past teaching experiences. Strange people we are. Maybe my contributions would not be so priceless. My emphasis is not on the immaturity itself. I question the effects 'hands on' teacher training has on some immature young teachers. It encourages immature teachers to go over the edge. Now, to be sure, the genetic weaknesses you see in sex offenders also must be reckoned. My treatise had not taken that into consideration. Tell me, what natural philosophy would account for much of your observations? You see, hands on education is very fleshy. With children with blocks, three dimension letter figures etal hands on education is fine, but not for self discovery and the like. Self discovery should be more spiritual with limited physical exploratrions. Physical punishments for misconduct is fine. But with hands on education young teachers tend to get involved wrongly. I am not sure Debra would interpret prison as punishment. Now, of course, I think her attorney has her scared of prison, but that is not likely to stick. Most likely she will be interested in what she can learn from the inmates. I know her kind. She is interested in learning anything. She is not concerned whether what she learns is good or bad. She just wants to learn, period. Learn anything! Many of these young teachers' minds are too curious into every facet of life. I honestly feel Debra may fall in love with all kinds of crime. Her mind very likely is like a sponge without morale values to limit it. I have a hunch her mind might be very receptive to all that she hears among the inmates. I also have a hunch she might be fasinated with all that she hears. Hands on teaching encourages the teacher as well as the pupils to engage fully. Now I am talking about teachers without morale breeding. And since her unmarried sister was pregnate when she was killed I feel Debra had little moral training in her upbreeding. I am sure her thinking is quite fleshy. I am praying that she get some morale imput from God. Yet I can visualize her listening to inmates with fasination on how to rob banks and the like. And I honestly believe she could do it without any guilt feelings...unless God hears our prayers. A mind without moral convictions can do terrible things. That's my ugly concerns. Forgive me. Love in Christ to you, Gramps. .
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Message 169441 (In Reply to Message 169344)
Posted by dp1
on Dec 14, 2005 07:33 AM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
Could politics have something to do with Marion County rejecfting the sentence given by Hillsborough County court? Just curious.
Absolutely. The Marion County Judge also had an advantage because he got a feel for the reaction of the public on the Hillsborough case before he rejected her plea. The victim's mother seems to be going a little overboard with the push for a plea deal. I don't blame the Judge for putting his foot down and trying to do what's right. It's beyond belief that a mother of a victim would settle for anything less than prison IMO. She's protesting too loudly possibly for the wrong reasons.
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Message 169444 (In Reply to Message 169344)
Posted by dp1
on Dec 14, 2005 07:54 AM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
God may want Debra to go to prison before He convicts her. As I mentioned in my first message I have many concerns aboujt Debra, particvularly her fake angel smiles and croc-like tears. Debra doesn't show spirit. Instead she shows only fleshy ways. Really fleshy life styles.
I hear ya. It wouldn't be unusual for a sex offender who is attracted to teens to not have much or any remorse. Usually the tears mean sadness about them getting caught. You don't think that offenders who have sex with teens actually feel bad about their victims do you? I suspect Debra justifies her actions like anyone else. Take a look at some of the other threads on this forum. It's mind boggling how a person can go through all the mental gymnastics to make it "ok" to have sex with a minor. Debra had to cross the professional boundary too. Gosh - I can't see how the folks in Hillsborough aren't feeling guilty about not sending her to prison. Can you really support his mother enabling this sick stuff? I mean think about it. The only reason she wanted a plea is to save her son. Puleeze.
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Message 169456 (In Reply to Message 169438)
pops
Posted by dp1
on Dec 14, 2005 02:39 PM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
Maybe my contributions would not be so priceless.
On the contrary Pops. I've often wondered what teachers are taught during their training program to become a teacher. Is their anything about healthy boundaries?
You could apply boundaries to any profession. There's really no way anyone could predict who has unhealthy boundaries until a vulnerable situation is upon the person. Let's say I am a bank teller with a moral upbringing. Then I find myself in a tight spot financially. I get drained emotionally. Somehow I start dreaming about the cash in my drawer. I listen to other tellers who tell secrets about taking money out of their drawer when they are over at the end of the day. Little by little I get worn down. I convince myself that taking cash out of the drawer is ok because other people do it. I've just set myself up to commit a crime, no?
Read some of the other threads in these forums. Listen to what the offenders are saying about teen sex. They are telling you straight up how they played the mental gymnastics and set themselves up for their crimes. It doesn't matter if the victim had sex before. Just like it doesn't matter if other tellers take money out of their drawer. It's a "No No" PERIOD. If the boudaries aren't in the right spot to begin with human nature is what it is.
I don't know what Debra's boundaries are in regards to physical attraction/sex with teens. If she didn't know herself and woke up one day and it occured to her she was sexually stimulated by teen boys she should have stopped right there and made a career choice. Nobody forced her to work with children. It's a choice she made to place herself in a position to commit a crime. This is what I find so disturbing about the lack of consequences with teachers in regards to sex crimes. If anything, the punishment should be equal to or greater to discourage adults with teen attractions from entering the field of teaching. Duh!
Also, what do teachers do to help each other maintain healthy boundaries? I suspect there's some enabling going on or a lack of awareness.
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Message 169477 (In Reply to Message 169344)
pops
Posted by dp1
on Dec 14, 2005 04:47 PM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
She tells me they encourage a hands-on approach.
Tell me more about this hands-on approach. I'm VERY curious.
In my profession a hands-off approach seems to be the norm. Personally, I am a very touchy feely kind of person. I have to make a concerted effort not to show effection because it can be taken the wrong way very easily particularly by sex offenders. Most officers flat out refuse to even shake hands with offenders. I find this approach far too cold. I do shake hands in a professional style with offenders. I believe the absence of hand shaking is more damaging to a professional relationship than the possible harm that could come out of the one in a million offenders that would assume something sexual from it. What do you think? For me the simple hand shake physically establishes some common ground between the enemies so to speak. How touchy feely do you think people in your profession should go? There has to be boundaries, do you agree?
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Message 169478 (In Reply to Message 169444)
Posted by Renunciation
on Dec 14, 2005 04:50 PM | Also by Renunciation
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: Bahrain |
The only reason she wanted a plea is to save her son.
Yup, something isn't right.
Mothers are usually quite vociferous in "defending" their boys. Look at some of the things Val has said about her son. (BTW, excluding the anger issues, she seemed to have done a good job with her son)
My gut tells me the mother is pushing a plea to hurry the process, to get the spotlight off the family. This boy might be a good looking kid, good enough for Debbie to risk her entire life to boink him, it is possible that Mom too, has sampled some of her son's abilities. Too much attention brings too much risk of exposure.
I guess I am thinking like a sex offender now, but Mom is acting like a red-wing blackbird. When you get too close, it will squawk and scream and make a fuss, to attract predators to its location, which is in the opposite direction of her nest.
She is either genuine in wanting to protect her son, or trying to protect herself. Or a strange combo of both.
Debbie could find herself making history as the prettiest member if the Ryce Center!
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Message 169503 (In Reply to Message 169444)
To dp: note I only am asking questions.
Posted by pop1
on Dec 15, 2005 01:43 AM | Also by pop1
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Tennessee,
Country: United States |
Dear dp1, I shouldn't have written my last message. The time was after midnight, an hour too late for an 87+ year old man to be involved in any form of communications. dp1, I want you to note I am asking questions. I have no more idea than a crabshell what best fits Debra's crime. May I ask you some questions? In your first kind answer to one of my early messages you tried to inform me of the common symptoms of all sex offenders. I forget your exact wording, but you indicated the problem was 'herself'. You asked how she could be helped against herself or something like that. Are you suggesting the problem is genetic thus suggesting her entire family should be under scrutiny? Or are you suggesting the problem is merely attitudinal? You mentioned she could care less. Certainly I understand the possibility she cares less about what her criminal misconduct did to the boy. And one of my questions about God's intentions is that He wants her to go to prison. That would be equivalent to letting the prodical son stoop so low to eat sty slop. It takes a sinner or criminal to go all the way to the depths of hell before coming to his/her senses. I can understand how it might take Debra to the brinks of death before she sees light. Yet I feel I was born to ask many stupid questions because I was trained back in the days of 'cause and effect' psychology. That's me! That's how I am. I can agree with your sentiments precisely and still ask many, many questions. That's how I am. Now as far as my Christian obligations to pray for Debra I must pray for her with all faith. Faith that God will hear me. Faith that He will save her soul at His own time. I ask you questions about causes of her criminal behavior, but those questions do not appear in my prayers. At one time I followed a Tampa group of prayers who prayed she would not be sentenced to prison. That time was followed by a strong feeling I was wrong and I stopped. My praying is for soul saving, for making the spirit in her stronger than her flesh and for bringing her to her senses. I also pray for God to hear my prayers for her. Yet I know in my heart that God will not hear my prayers until she herself turns to Jesus. He also will not hear my prayers until the boy and she forgive each other and build a whole new Christian friendship free of sin. Unfortunately that also applies to God forgiving the boy. Now, mind you, dp1, I pray for that boy as much as I do for Debra. My prayers for him, however, are private whereas I pray much for Debra publicly in prayer forums on the net. Now about what sex offenders have to do to reach a satisfactory relationship with the world Orolan makes it sound very complicated and difficult. He has been working for nine years and has reached an accomplishment only within the past three years. Recently I was very pleased to hear him describe a right relationship with God. I certainly pray he is correct. dp1, I don't think our hearts are far apart. Only our minds are. Love in Christ to you. pop1.
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Message 169506 (In Reply to Message 169477)
To dp1; I am an old fashion Emersonian at heart.
Posted by pop1
on Dec 15, 2005 02:19 AM | Also by pop1
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Tennessee,
Country: United States |
Dear dp1, I may be a a fool for asking questions, but when it came to teaching (special education) my orientation was that a teacher must be a communicator. Yes, I ask questions, I know. That, however, always was with teacher peers, not with others. With you I am begining to feel I am with a peer. I mean that! Now, my teaching always was finding the kid's interests and beginning communicating with him/her with those interests. From there then to what the kid(s) needed to have/know. I always steered away from body contact because I wanted mind to mind contact. Education to me means training the mind, not the body. Today, were I teaching I would be tempted to reach the child's spirit if I could find it. But, dp1, that's just how I am. I don't mean to convict hands-on education though I have some fear of it. My granddaughter teacher and I talk into the wee hours about this. I have the same feelings about diversity of cultures in America. I tell Michelle it's all right to accept cultural multiplicity as long as one knows where he/she stands within that diversity. After all no one of us can live in multiple ways; each has to live his/her own way. If we don't know where we stand within a diversified world, we will be swallowed up by the diversity. Now the same thing goes with the place of education. Education rightfully is of and for the mind. All right, all right! I know there are different kinds of education. Social etal education. Okay! We have to know where we stand with everything we do, whether it is teaching, learning, doing etal. About shaking hands with students? No! About touching students? No way! Shaking hands with their parents? Yes, absolutely! That's me, dp1. That's all I am trying to do, dp1, is helping you to understand me. Love in Christ, pop1.
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Message 169513 (In Reply to Message 169456)
To dp1
Posted by pop1
on Dec 15, 2005 03:32 AM | Also by pop1
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Tennessee,
Country: United States |
Dear dp1, It's been so long since I was a young teacher. It was right after WW!!. Now in those days I was very immature in many ways. However I lived in a society that was so different than today's society. Now,dp1, the society in which we live does make a difference. If I were starting my teaching today with the immatujritry I had then, I am not sure how successful my teaching career would have been. I say this honestly. I started teaching as soon as I returned from the war in January, 1946. I didn't turn Emersonian until the 1950s. The society in those days had a strong set of Christian values whether individually they were Christians or not. I remember in college before WW!! when some students in a philosophy class grunted negatively when they heard about Jean Rousseau having five boys out of wedlock with his housekeeper. That was the way people were then. It was different. Even in WW!! my officer friends and I never thought about adultery because our society would have fowned on it. A minority did, of course. To be sure they were marked, but they didn't care. I guess they were like Debra Lafave. Well that's my message! The world has changed more than it sounds possible. Only we senior citizens can tell you about the change. It's greater than young people today can visualize. The social change since WW!! has been GIANT SIZED. It's been MAMMOUTH! ENORMOUS! I just cannot describe how different things are today compared to WW!! era. I just cannot do it. To be sure in Sociology classes we learned cultures change drastically from era to era. And we studied Hosea's times when Israel was much like today here in America. It was to demonstrate how times do change. But then we were young and didn't believe it. Now we know! Now I'm telling you and I mean it And, dp1, teachers then talked about Jesus in the classrooms without hesitations and believed in Him. Today teachers talk about sex in the classrooms without the slightest hesitation. What a difference! In my young days as a teacher I would have been @#%* had I said the word, sex. In those days I never heard of an immoral teacher. I really am afraid Debra Lafave in those days would have been hung by the parents. I wouldn't have had a chance to ask questions about her. Why? Because she would have been dead. dp1, I honestly think the government needs to pass laws regarding teacher character qualifications. That's what I think will happen, and soon. Personally I hope those government requirementrs will be super strict. I think that has to happen. Well, love in Cnrist to you. Pop. Incidentally I am known as Gramps in the prayer forums.
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Message 169526 (In Reply to Message 169513)
Gramps
Posted by dp1
on Dec 15, 2005 04:54 AM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
I have not been around as long as you. Quite honestly I'm half your age. Therefore, I can't say with certainty how different today's world is compared to how it was when you started teaching. What I do know is that sexual abuse has been around longer than both of us. It's unrealistic to assume that pedophiles and child molesters did not gravitate towards career fields involving children. You can simply see this clearly within the catholic churches. Years ago, people did not talk about sex or abuse yet it existed. I'd be willing to bet that if teachers were caught having sex in the old days it either went unnoticed or unreported or the teacher simply disappeared and moved on to the next school just like the priests did. What do you think?
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Message 169527 (In Reply to Message 169506)
Gramps
Posted by dp1
on Dec 15, 2005 05:03 AM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
I do understand you. It sounds like we have a lot in common. I also see my profession as one that teaches or communicates. There is no question that communication should be mind to mind contact. My confusion comes in with the teaching profession and how or why they don't somehow prevent abuse. Are teachers trained on physical boundaries? If they violate physical boundaries is something done about it before it escalates? How can someone detect that a teacher is becoming too emotionally involved or is that possible? Any suggestions?
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Message 169561 (In Reply to Message 169527)
Things I remember.
Posted by pop1
on Dec 15, 2005 07:08 PM | Also by pop1
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Tennessee,
Country: United States |
Dear dp1, I can report only what I personally saw and remember. Many things ceretainly happened that I didn't see or don't remember.
I lived in an rural part of SW PA with the Appalachians to the east and flatter grounds to the west. Coal mines still were in opperation though coal was getting scarce. Today that same area looks like a welfare nation. Anyhow I recall scenes that today would be considered as people taking the law into their own hands. Everyone and his uncle had woodsheds, large ones. Many evenings I recall seeing boys and young men hauled into one of those sheds. I recall hearing their voices pleading for their beatings to stop. But I remember hearing why they were beaten. They did something they should not have done to a girl to woman. I recall hearing that one boyfriend of mine 'made eyes to' a girl. FLIRTING WAS A CRIME! Can you imagine why I personally was SCARED to do anything WRONG! And dp1 I was not the only SCARED KID ON THE BLOCK! GIRLS WERE NO- NOs Our fathers, God bless them, enforced the law. They called those laws GOD'S LAWS! You know, I have a hunch that even young teachers were scared of the local fathers. I don't recall fathers havig to discipline teachers, but maybe they didn't have to. Being scared was enough. And don't forget that in those we had community schools. Centralized schools did not come into vast existence until after WW!!. I personally believe that government laws against teacher misconduct becomes so strict that no one will volunteer to become a teacher. Sound crazy? In some primitive societies teachers were prepared as children to become teachers. Those teachers were well prepared in character as well as in methods of teaching. Some of our native Americans had such teacher training in their tribes. So there could be developed some sort of system to develop and train young promising teens that show teaching talents. Now I know that the NEA will hate my spine for saying this, but I firmly believe parents should have more say about their school staffings. Hey, my tongue is swelling up in my cheeks but I have to say this. Sometimes I believe Principals should be elected by the parents of a given school....sic and more sic's!!!! O God, you folks, please don't let this out of our friendly mix...PLEASE! ... or somethjing terrible will be put on my soon-to-be tombstone. dp1, I think I had better stop here while I still live. Love in Christ. Pop.
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Message 169611 (In Reply to Message 169561)
Thank You, Father
Posted by pop1
on Dec 16, 2005 05:54 AM | Also by pop1
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Tennessee,
Country: United States |
O God, Our Father, Thank You for the message I am getting. If I hear You right, you are sayng You can use Debra in prison. If she accepts Jesus, He will go with her to prison along with the Holy Spirit. Thank You, Father, for this message. I thought this would be Your stand in her case. But now I know. Thank You.
Most readers will scoff at this message, but I don't care because it is YOURS. Please, Father, reform her as You brought Lazarus back from dead. There isn't anything You can't do. Have Debra accept Jesus as her Savior and Lord. Lead her to repent 180 degrees and use her as You wish in prison or wherever the Court puts her. If You don't use her, Father, she will stay in Satan's hands and acompany Him to Hell. Thank You for Your plans to use her for saving lost souls. We thank You in Jesus' name. Amen. And, Jesus, thank You for this honor to pray here for Debra and for the boy in private..
.
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Message 169616 (In Reply to Message 169526)
To dp1
Posted by pop1
on Dec 16, 2005 09:51 AM | Also by pop1
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Tennessee,
Country: United States |
Dear dp1 I don't mean to be unfair with you, but certainly you have got to believe I am dodging your questions. I honestly have been recording what I saw and/or remember. You are speaking about the past more in terms of what seems logical. And I am sure your analysis is correct or close to being as per. I don't recall ever doing research on your questions though such could be done. And the findings I'm sure would be interesting to read. Yes, before WW!! physical boundaries were given. For the most part they allowed very mild touching for positive reinforcements. They could include such things as a tap on the hand or shoulder. I don't recall anything more intimate than that. Now I worked with small class groups in special education. Special education resource rooms included such professionals as speech path, language path, reading teachers, SLD and LLD class teachers. Max class sizes for such teachers was six to ten pupils. It's my hunch these professionals would have more opportunities toward misconduct. If I were an administrator I would want these professionals screened heavily. Teachers of regular classes woujld, I think, have less opportunities toward misconduct. I also tend to want close scrutiny on teachers in the more hidden classrooms such as those in mobile situations. Note that Debra was a reading teacher in such a mobile classroom which is detached from the rest of the school. Were I an administrator I would want heavy surveilance mong teachers of small classes in the more isolated classrooms. That would have included Debra's situation. Now I am talking from logic rather than from experiences. Something tells me you are going to agree with these latter observations. . In short, watch out for teachers of small class sizes in isolated rooms. Yet, it would be very negative discrimination to suspect all such teachers and professionals such as speech paths. In the Bible that kind of negative discrimination is called enmity. Some of the best teachers and other professionals had small class sizes in the more isolated rooms. So, dp1, it is a hard problem. Too much scrutiny will cause some excellent teachers to leave. Not enough watch dogs provide utter lack of safe precautions. Where's the middle? I really don't know. Good teachers usually are extremely sensitive and can be easily hurt. I would tend to be suspicious of the less sensitive, the complacent. Yet I know that also is wrong. I have seen what you might call easy-going teachers who were excellent. I had a hard time with them because I had an unfair bias against them. I myself was not laid back. In my younger days I maintained a high degree of excitement with busy pupil involvement in many kinds of activities which they had to share with other classes. As a young teacher I couldn't sit still. And I couldn't let my pupils sit still. With me they constantly had to be doing something, mostly preparing something to be shared with others. Activity and more activity was my speed. That's the way I was; I couldn't slow down to my wife's chagrin. Age however eventially took its toll. So, now you know more about me, but less about the problem we are trying to discuss. I honestly don't know how to tackle this problem of RSO among teachers. Well, here I am again trying to communicate when an old man should be sleeping.
God loves you, dp1. Love in Christ to you. Pop. (sic-almost wrote my actual name). I don't like code names but understand they are safer. Good night and sleep well.
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Message 169627 (In Reply to Message 167830)
Posted by jzenman
on Dec 16, 2005 03:20 PM | Also by jzenman
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Missouri,
Country: United States |
I’m coming here as an outsider. I’m not an offender and I’m not a concerned citizen. I’ve never been abused and I never even had sex until I was 19. I’m just an average guy. I do stand up comedy for a living. I just wanted to throw this into the discussion. Whenever I’m on stage and I talk about this case everyone laughs. The joke is basically about a hot (female) teacher having sex with a fourteen year old boy student. I did the same joke years ago with Mary K. Letourneau. It always works in front of any crowd. I would say at least 90 percent of all people find the Lafave case and the Mary K. case silly. Now I’ve been doing this long enough to know if it was the other way around and the teacher was male and the student was female it wouldn’t be funny at all. No one would laugh and I’d probably get booed off stage. Personally I don’t think it matters at all if someone like Debra Lafave has sex with a 14 year old boy. At that age that’s all I thought about was sex and lets face it this woman was beautiful. I’m sorry to tell you but most people find the whole thing just hilarious. I know that justice is supposed to treat everyone equal whether they’re male or female but in this instance it just doesn’t work. There is just a big difference between a beautiful teacher having sex with 14 year old boy and a creepy old guy having sex with a girl (or young boy). At LEAST 90 percent of the general audience sees it this way but I don’t think most of you want to hear it said.
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Message 169652 (In Reply to Message 169627)
jzenman
Posted by dp1
on Dec 16, 2005 08:56 PM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
Hello and welcome to the forum. I hear what you are saying. However, when looking at the big picture there must be thousands of examples of criminal behavior people find comical. How about the peter pumping Judge? What a hoot. Just because his behavior is hilarious that doesn't mean he should get off does it? There isn't a day that goes by that something a criminal does doesn't strike me as funny. One of my favorites is when this white guy tried to fake his urinalysis test and made a homemade whizinator w | | |
