|
|
Forum: In the News
Thread (Discussion): [scotsman.com] Gang 'murdered suspected paedophile at bus stop' - Victorialondon
Message 131203
Introduction
Posted by admin
on Apr 22, 2004 10:23 AM | Also by admin
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: N/A |
Discuss the article Gang 'murdered suspected paedophile at bus stop', by Jacqui Walls, which appeared on scotsman.com on April 21, 2004.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread
Message 131204 (In Reply to Message 131203)
Posted by steve
on Apr 22, 2004 02:34 PM | Also by steve
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Virginia,
Country: United States |
This is a sad case because justice wasn't served and we'll probably never know whether the murdered man was guilty of the crime he allegedly committed.
Even though some claim that community notification of registered sex offenders in the United States leaves offenders open to vigilantism, the media leaves me to believe that the frequency of murder, attempted murder and violence against alleged and convicted sex offenders in the U.K. is *much* higher. In fact, I've read more cases involving people in the U.K. and they have less than 1/4 of the population of the U.S., a registered sex offender population less than 1/10 that of the United States' and no publicly accessible sex offender registry. I know there are differences in the culture between the U.S. and the U.K., but I can't help but wonder whether the lack of a public sex offender registry in the U.K. is contributing in some way to the frequency of violent attacks against sex offenders and alleged sex offenders.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (131203)
Message 131225 (In Reply to Message 131203)
Life sentence?
Posted by Silverthorne
on Apr 22, 2004 06:49 PM | Also by Silverthorne
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Arizona,
Country: United States |
I think these guys should get life with no parole if found guilty. This wasn't even a case of a CONVICTED SO for petes sake just someone with an accusation.
Is it my imagination or does the UK seem to have a high number of these vigilante cases?
Siverthorne
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (131203)
Message 131227 (In Reply to Message 131204)
Dont agree
Posted by Silverthorne
on Apr 22, 2004 06:52 PM | Also by Silverthorne
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Arizona,
Country: United States |
"but I can't help but wonder whether the lack of a public sex offender registry in the U.K. is contributing in some way to the frequency of violent attacks against sex offenders and alleged sex offenders."
I dont agree I think they're just more "paranoid" then most. They seem angrier about the entire SO topic. The media over there does hype it alot more then even the US media.
How would bringing these people into the public view help reduce these attacks? If anything they'd increase them because people would know where they are.
I think it was the UK last year that had that cases of a PEDIATRICIAN who had her office destroyed because they thought it was PEDOPHILE (couldn't spell). I mean these people are out of control.
Silverthorne
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (131204)
Message 131230 (In Reply to Message 131227)
Posted by steve
on Apr 22, 2004 07:01 PM | Also by steve
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Virginia,
Country: United States |
I dont agree I think they're just more "paranoid" then most. They seem angrier about the entire SO topic. The media over there does hype it alot more then even the US media.
How would bringing these people into the public view help reduce these attacks? If anything they'd increase them because people would know where they are.
Purely on conjecture, maybe there would be less of a NIMBY attitude and fear of these offenders (and alleged offenders) if they knew how many there really were and that they're everywhere. Like you said though, maybe they are more paranoid and angrier than Americans and maybe the media is contributing to the problem. Part of the reason I posed that question was because victorialondon (who lives in the U.K.) is adamant that the public registries in the U.S. are subjecting convicted offenders to potential acts of vigilantims. From where I'm sitting vigilantism in the U.K. against convicted *and* alleged sex offenders appears much more frequent, especially considering their relative population and sex offenders per capita. If she is willing to condemn the U.S. for things that could possible or theoretically happen I'm willing to tongue in cheek play connect the dots purely on conjecture. If my (and your) perceived rate of vigilantism in the U.K. isn't because of lack of information available to the public, could it be because of their funny accents? their fascination with soccer? or are they just less civilized? Take your pick.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (131227)
Message 131233 (In Reply to Message 131230)
I'll pass Steve
Posted by Silverthorne
on Apr 22, 2004 07:08 PM | Also by Silverthorne
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Arizona,
Country: United States |
Thats a pick I wont make. I can't explain the fanaticism over there. The media is more "hype oriented" (read the Guardian???) and may explain some of it. Still theres no logical explanation.
The murder of the accused does happen here. Remember last year I posted an article from Apache Junction, AZ about a guy who was killed in his house (ended up being the accuseds father - wrong guy) by a gang. Same type of deal.
I wonder what types of laws they have over there to protect SO's? I mean is targeting them a special crime like it would be here if you used the registry or is it just normal "assualt". If you ask me its almost like a hate crime.
Silverthorne
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (131230)
Message 131238 (In Reply to Message 131233)
Posted by steve
on Apr 22, 2004 07:27 PM | Also by steve
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Virginia,
Country: United States |
I realize it happens here, but the rate of vigilantism against sex offenders there seems to be *much* higher than it is here. Part of my perception could be related to media coverage, but let me put it this way - I'm not actively looking for this type of crime outside the U.S., but I come across coverage of it more than I do for incidents in the U.S., which I'm actually looking for. There are more than 10 times as many convicted sex offenders in the U.S. as in the U.K. I don't know why the frequency of vigilantism there is higher (or seems higher), but everything else being equal I'd expect to see 10 times as many incidents in the U.S. as there based on the size of the sex offender population in the U.S. and I feel like I'm actually seeing *more* incidents total in the U.K. than in the U.S.
And I'm not saying that these incidents don't occur here. I'm sure they do. I don't try to hide acts of violence against sex offenders when I come across him here. Heck, I posted the article about the offender murdered in Wisconsin over the weekend, the guy from New Hampshire who stabbed an offender he knew and burned the home of several offenders whose names he got from the registry and most other cases I've come across.
One thing we should be clear of though - there are 200,000+ registered convicted sex offenders in the U.S. and if you pulled 200,000 regular citizens at random in the U.S. statistics indicate that 15-20 would be murdered each year. So it goes to follow that some sex offenders are going to be murdered just because murder happens. I'm pretty sure the murder rate of convicted felons is quite a bit higher than the population at large as well (I'd have to locate the numbers). My point is that we can't just hear "sex offender murdered" and assume 1. that it had something to do with the person's status as a sex offender and 2. that the murderer found out that the person was a convicted sex offender after looking at the public registry. On the flipside, based on actual facts in new stories in the U.K. it's often quite clear that the fact that the person was a sex offender was the reason the person was attacked or killed.
And for the record, I don't have anything against the U.K. I'm merely discussing issues there because that's the country where I'm reading about what appears to be high rates of vigilantism against sex offenders.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (131233)
Message 131293 (In Reply to Message 131238)
Media
Posted by Silverthorne
on Apr 23, 2004 02:45 AM | Also by Silverthorne
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Arizona,
Country: United States |
I do believe its higher in the UK. I also believe though the police here and the media aren't in too much of a hurry to "protect" sex offenders.
Silverthorne
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (131238)
Message 131460 (In Reply to Message 131204)
Posted by orolan
on Apr 24, 2004 03:15 AM | Also by orolan
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
I think it's purely a matter of culture. The British act on what they believe, right or wrong. The Americans don't.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (131204)
Message 131489 (In Reply to Message 131204)
Could it be the abscence of a national press?
Posted by victorialondon
on Apr 24, 2004 02:15 PM | Also by victorialondon
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United Kingdom |
Could it be that reports of vigilantism are more available here because we have a national press and in America the press is more localised?are these local papers reluctant publish anything which might undermine "Megan's" law?
The point is that posting on the web must expose those posted to danger.It is not only those posted that are so posted but their families.Since many of the offenders are non predatory, of less serious offence(or relativly so),and low risk many are still allowed their own children to live with them,as is the case with some who post here .This means that there are thousands of children living at the addresses posted on the websites.What will sooner or later happen to some of these children?
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (131204)
Message 131503 (In Reply to Message 131225)
It's irrelevent whether he was convicted or not.
Posted by victorialondon
on Apr 24, 2004 06:55 PM | Also by victorialondon
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United Kingdom |
It's irrelevent whether he was convicted or not.One day the vigilantes may get the "right" victim,this doesn't matter.All victims of vigilantism are innocent since vigilantism is not a proper penalty in law.
There is no such sentence as "life without the possibility of parole" in British law(Scots law is different from English law,neither has it)
The Judge can recommend "natural life",but it's only a recommendation.
I refer you to my post about the press in comparing Britain and America(I have no information on Continental Europe).
There is indeed a lot of vigilantism here,the troubles resulting from the "News of the World"s(a pornographic hate sheet I won't call a newspaper) inflammatory name/shame witchunt(which Mark Klaas and Maureen Kanka flew here to support)has never fully died out .And the latterday Salem's of previously peacefull housing estates which this campaign incited still simmer.
A paediatrician and her family were attacked on a misunderstanding of words(actually to get it right you must understand the Greek root of a word,can everyone in America do that?).
Recently it has been spreading away from sexual offences to others,and a suspected burglar was beaten to death with a baseball bat.
In northern Ireland the paramilitaries rule.With wretches kneecapped,sometimes on suspicion of sexual offences,but also on suspicion of petty theft.Families have benn burned alive in their homes,recently this has turned racist with more many Ethnic families attacked and driven and burned out.
David Blunkett,the Home secretary(IE law and order boss)and savage enemy of civil rights has said of attempts to introduce a British version of "Megan's law".
"I say quietly to those campaigning that we cannot hand over to mobs who can't tell Paediatricians from paedophiles"
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (131225)
Message 131512 (In Reply to Message 131225)
Posted by orolan
on Apr 24, 2004 08:15 PM | Also by orolan
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
Is it my imagination or does the UK seem to have a high number of these vigilante cases?
That's exactly what Steve is saying. They may not have more, it's just that it makes the papers a lot more often.
You know all those phantom unverifiable "unreported sex offenses"? Maybe the same is true about vigilante action against RSO's. They're unreported. But that doesn't mean they don't happen.
Suppose you're an RSO and somebody throws a brick through your window with a threatening note tied to it. The 'hood knows you're an RSO, and life is tough enough already. Are you going to call the police? Risk them telling the crime beat reporter down at the precint about it? Read it on page 1 of the Times the next day? "Vigilantes Throw Brick Through Window of RSO's House at 1234 Main Street". Now the whole city is driving by your house checking it out. Maybe coming back that night with a few bricks of their own?
Better off to keep your mouth shut.
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (131225)
Message 131515 (In Reply to Message 131489)
Victorialondon
Posted by orolan
on Apr 24, 2004 08:23 PM | Also by orolan
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
That may well be a factor. Along with the sheer size of the country. It is tough for people in the Bronx to relate at all to news from East L.A., and vice versa.
England is a small country.
More important is the nature of that press, not its coverage area. The media in the USA is driven by greed and public opinion, along with a dose of political intervention from time to time (witness CNN coverage of the Iraq war).
Forum Home
| Top of Thread | Jump To Parent (131489)
Thread
131203, admin, Apr 22, 2004 10:23 AM [Introduction]
131204, steve, Apr 22, 2004 02:34 PM
131227, Silverthorne, Apr 22, 2004 06:52 PM [Dont agree]
131230, steve, Apr 22, 2004 07:01 PM
131233, Silverthorne, Apr 22, 2004 07:08 PM [I'll pass Steve]
131238, steve, Apr 22, 2004 07:27 PM
131293, Silverthorne, Apr 23, 2004 02:45 AM [Media]
131460, orolan, Apr 24, 2004 03:15 AM
131489, victorialondon, Apr 24, 2004 02:15 PM [Could it be the abscence of a nation...]
131515, orolan, Apr 24, 2004 08:23 PM [Victorialondon]
131225, Silverthorne, Apr 22, 2004 06:49 PM [Life sentence?]
131503, victorialondon, Apr 24, 2004 06:55 PM [It's irrelevent whether he was convi...]
131512, orolan, Apr 24, 2004 08:15 PM
Forum Home
| Top of Thread
|
|
|
