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Forum: General

Thread (Discussion): Orolan's Story

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Message 120212 (In Reply to Message 120110)
Silver's Reply

Posted by dp1 on Oct 20, 2003 11:10 PM | Also by dp1

Gender: Female, Age Bracket: N/A, State: Florida, Country: United States

"I expect better then a whine and cheese flame"

Ok. How about a steak dinner for all that hard work you did on this lengthy post I feel compelled to reply to? Medium or rare?

"1) His sentencing judge recommended probation, no registry, minimal therapy and seemed to understand he didn't commit a "sex crime". While under the letter of the law he may've discussed a sexual matter with a minor its obvious the statute was written for another purpose."

No registry? Is that true? Orolan please let us know if this is accurate. I don't remember that in your post. I have no depos or police reports with the victim's comments or statements so I am not in a position to say what Orolan said or did not say. Silver, did you read all the testimony or are you taking the word of a convicted felon? Based on Orolan's version I agree with you Silver. I will reserve comments or judgements until all facts are known.

"He was given custody of his kids. "

So? What's your point? I have plenty of examples on my caseload who have multiple sexual batteries on children and are sexual predators with Court approval to have contact with their own kids. Courts tend to be very lenient when it comes to contact with biological children...they have rights too...has no bearing on whether or not the SO will reoffend or is a risk.

"If the PO had read the case file he'd have known what the original judge obviously did. If he had talked to Orolon respectfully and been told the story - backed up with the case files - isn't it possible he'd have a different view?"

Orolan stated that his P.O. actually went to Court with him and spoke against his motion. For those folks not in the legal system let me enlighten you. A pro se' motion or a motion filed by a Defendant's attorney to modify or clarify conditions is an extremely low priority for a Probation Officer and are not mandatory Court appearances. For a P.O. to feel that strongly about the motion and to take time out of his busy day to drive down to Court and speak against something....well...what does that tell you? It has been years since I got up at 7:00 am, faced the traffic downtown, just to go to a hearing that wasn't even mandatory.....you bet your bippie I had that file memorized backwards and forwards. It's a major inconvenience and I don't do that often.

"If so do you think thats the best way to deal with situations like this?"

The best way for a PO to handle the situation is to do exactly what he did....express your concerns to the Judge and let him rule. That's what he get's paid to do. His failure to express his concerns would strike me as a failure in the system.

" guess I'll ask Orolan why if it was obvious he didn't have sex with her (look at the sentence he got) did the police just "give up" finding the actual offender? They had a duty to protect the public and they failed."

No doubt...now you see what I see. If the issue was her having sex then the person doing it should have been held responsible either by the Court or by the parents....not for Orolan to make that decision.

"You don't believe 10% of what he's saying (you said you believe 90% is true). What is he lying about? Perhaps you'd care to enlighten me (and him). I'd love to give him the opportunity to show us something is true when you assume its not (assuming he can)."

When I mentioned the 90% figure I thought I was being complimentary considering the circumstances. And I certainly don't want to bash Orolan since I truly respect the fact that he posted his story. But since you asked and I respect you also here's my answer.
Orolan stated that he wasn't the one having sex with the minor. He believed it was his brother. He chose not to tell LE or the Court the truth. He freely admitted to having inappropriate sexual conversations with a minor, believed that she was having sex and failed to report that information to the parents. He claims that he had on-going issues with polygraphers and conspired with his attorney to fabricate juicy lies to in some way manipulate the test or prove it isn't 100% accurate. Do I need to continue to prove why I don't have 100% trust or faith? The pattern speaks for itself. Trust must be earned from this point forward.

"Don't say this doesn't happen."

I promise I won't, but let me explain.

"I've heard in group examples of PO's coming out and dumping drawers on the floor, pulling videos off a shelf and leaving them on the floor, dumping a garbage can out on the kitchen table, stuff like that. You hear stuff like that going on and it really makes you wonder what is going on? Despite the fact these people are on probation a little decency and respect for their right as a human being with feelings would go along way. "

You are 100% correct. I have heard the stories. I have no idea how often this might occur (hopefully not much) since people with similar work ethics tend to work together. I take the lead on my searches and don't tolerate that behavior so officers don't pull that on my team. I believe in leading by example....if I treat my cases with respect then they will in turn treat me the same way. I don't demand respect I earn it. There's are difference.

"People who would say "they're a convicted SO we dont have to worry about their feelings look what they did" are in the wrong business if they're PO's."

Agreed - 100%. Sex offenders tend to be more emotional than the average (only from my perspective) so better reason to treat their feelings with respect even when searches and arrests are made.

"But isn't it also the responsibility of the PO (who is supposed to help protect the public) to ensure stress is kept at a minimum so this person is likely to NOT reoffend? They seem like mutually inclusive goals to me."

It's not a responsibility and it sure as heck isn't part of our job description. People are people. Some people are just oblivious to other people's stress. Silver, I think that you know me well enough (as well as some others on this board) that I am particularly sensitive to stress and depression because I am well aware that stress, anxiety and depression are major factors with relapsing or re-offending. They are precursors to sexual abuse without a doubt. Funny you should mention that because I was thinking in regards to Orolan - he must be one tough cookie to break since he knew posting his story would create conflict and confrontation......He's either very stable or completely insane.(LOL)

"No where have I ever seen where the purpose of probation was to humiliate, degrade, disrespect and harrass an individual."

Agreed - 100%

Silver, I am not here on this board to justify why certain LE or PO's do what they do. I can only say what I do. On the other hand, I am very much interested in what works and what doesn't work as far as therapy and probation for my own information and professional growth. I do appreciate hearing even the negative comments since it better enables me to understand the mistrust with LE. Thanks for your input and I hope I answered all the highlights.
DP1

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Message 120110
Why Im whining

Posted by Silverthorne on Oct 19, 2003 05:35 PM | Also by Silverthorne

Gender: Male, Age Bracket: N/A, State: Arizona, Country: United States

DP1,

I expect better then a whine and cheese flame.

Anyway, if the situation is as Orolan presented it then NO I don't consider him a sex offender (regardless of what some registry says).

Here's why I'm thinking the way I do:

1) His sentencing judge recommended probation, no registry, minimal therapy and seemed to understand he didn't commit a "sex crime".  While under the letter of the law he may've discussed a sexual matter with a minor its obvious the statute was written for another purpose.

As an example look at the USA Patriot Act and the followup act.  Despite all the claims it will "stop terrorists" remember a few weeks ago I posted an article describing how they're using it to go after normal domestic criminals?  Theres a perfect example of a law being "warped" to get a conviction for something that was never intended when the law was passed.

He was given custody of his kids.  I realize the PO had a duty to "protect the public" but isn't it possible his reaction was part of the "sterotype" here.  If the PO had read the case file he'd have known what the original judge obviously did.  If he had talked to Orolon respectfully and been told the story - backed up with the case files - isn't it possible he'd have a different view?  What I'm saying is its obvious this particular PO (if he is truly as Orolan presents him - and thats a big "if") then isn't it possible he's operating in misconceptions and sterotypes and not on individual facts in this case?  If so do you think thats the best way to deal with situations like this?

Orolan says the PO has "mellowed out" a bit.  He's still a tough guy but he'd obviously seen Orolan isn't some drooling child molester hiding behind a bush.  I realize it takes time to know someone but you also have the make the EFFORT to know them?

2) If the police had investigated properly they would've discovered his brother was the one who had sex with this girl.   Instead it sounds like they were pressured into getting a conviction by the parents.

I guess I'll ask Orolan why if it was obvious he didn't have sex with her (look at the sentence he got) did the police just "give up" finding the actual offender?  They had a duty to protect the public and they failed.

3) You don't believe 10% of what he's saying (you said you believe 90% is true).  What is he lying about?  Perhaps you'd care to enlighten me (and him).  I'd love to give him the opportunity to show us something is true when you assume its not (assuming he can).

4) Trashing his home.  Regardless of whether he lied or not SO's are subject to random searches (read about them in the paper here).  I'm just wondering if its standard PO practice to trash a persons home?  Have you considered it may be another form of punishment, demeaning them and "putting them down" in a way?  If so why do you feel its justified when they've served their jail sentence and are now on probation?  Or is probation supposed to be more punishment?  If not how is it justified to "trash" a persons home.  A search can be done with a reasonable amount of respect for a persons home (I spent three years on a police reserve and helped with some search warrants -  I know).

Don't say this doesn't happen.  I've heard in group examples of PO's coming out and dumping drawers on the floor, pulling videos off a shelf and leaving them on the floor, dumping a garbage can out on the kitchen table, stuff like that.  You hear stuff like that going on and it really makes you wonder what is going on?  Despite the fact these people are on probation a little decency and respect for their right as a human being with feelings would go along way.

People who would say "they're a convicted SO we dont have to worry about their feelings look what they did" are in the wrong business if they're PO's.

Considering people who suffer from pedophilia (in particular) will tell you real life stresses can aggrevate the problem I find it completely irresponsible that an individual like a PO would do something to cause MORE STRESS in a person.  I know there will be some stress being on probation and they did commit the crime -its part of the deal.  But isn't it also the responsibility of the PO (who is supposed to help protect the public) to ensure stress is kept at a minimum so this person is likely to NOT reoffend?  They seem like mutually inclusive goals to me.

Thats why I feel this way.  If your wondering I was once the subject of a "search".  I've mentioned before how while I was in group in Minnesota there was a high-profile abduction case.  One of the group members (who was a convicted SO) gave the FBI my name as "someone suspicious" because I had talked about it in group ( the case upset me alot and I talked about that - I could relate to the boy and "imagine" what he was going thru).

So I came home one day and found an FBI business card stuck in my door.  The agent came out after I called him and asked my alabi.  Now I had been playing hockey that night so my alabi was good.  Coincidently one of the other guys playing was the FBI agent in charge of the case investigating the abduction.  Pretty good alibi.

Anyway he asked to "look around" when he got there.  I had been very careful to put in a secure place my "scrapbook" of underwear clippings and didn't have anything around so I said sure.  While he didn't really "mess up" anything he did go thru everything.

I realize I could've always said "no" but I was afraid to.  Afraid he'd come back with a warrant and trash the place.  Afraid because he asked what "your offense was" and was a little surprised when I told him there wasn't one.  He had been investigating all convicted SO's in the area and assumed I was another one.  He was a little surprised when I told him I was in group voluntarily.  Either way I'm sure I'm on some computer somewhere now.

Anyway he left.  I'll move on to the mid 90's.  I owned a few trucks and was leased onto a large national trucking company.  I was driving in South Carolina when I pulled into a weigh station.  I was pulled aside and the truck searched.  Now this is "legal" according the the governments because it's a commercial vehicle.  Even though the truck (with custom sleeper) was my "home"  it's open to search (which I consider illegal but the courts are still fighting that out).

Anyway he just waltzed in and started pulling stuff off shelves, from closets and dumped everything on the bed in a big pile.  He made a mess of what was a "show truck" that I used to make school recruiting visits for the company I was leased to.

The point is he had no business doing it.  Oh sure a search was "legal" but trashing the place was just some jerk on a power trip.  If it's any consolation I wrote a complaint letter to the governor and commandant of the state patrol (including before and "after" pictures which I took when he was done).  I actually got a reply back and this person was supposedly disciplined.  So the system worked.

Now I was a law abiding taxpayer doing business there.  I could "write a letter" and expect a response.  Could an SO do that with an overzealous PO?

Don't get me wrong DP1.  I believe PO's should have the right to conduct random searches of PO's homes.  I believe in close supervison of SO's.  I posted in the past an article (cant find it now) about the revolutionary probation team we have here in Phoenix and our under 2% recidivism rate for sex offenders (under 2% commit new sex crimes with 5 years).  All this is good but there has to be a "checks and balances".

1) Can a search be conducted without trashing a place?

YES

2) Can the PO treat the SO with a level of dignity?

YES

3) Can the PO recognize the SO needs to rebuild his life and is he able to assist in that so he doesn't act out again?

YES

Now one question for you DP1,

WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF PROBATION?

My quess is:  Its to provide continual monitoring of criminals after their release from an institution.  By providing supervision the criminal has a checks and balaces system inplace to assist in his rehabilitation.  This system also allows for the public safety by monitoring convicted criminals after release to ensure they rejoin productive society.

If I'm wrong let me know but to me that looks like the PO's job is the HELP the SO reenter society in a responsible manner.  I've never viewed probation as a punishment in that sense.  Instead I view it as supervision for someone to ensure they have the tools in place to rejoin society.  A "checks and balances".

No where have I ever seen where the purpose of probation was to humiliate, degrade, disrespect and harrass an individual.

What I'm saying is properly done all the same things that are done now can be done without all the negative side effects.

Trashing a house is very negative.

Silverthorne

Thread

120017, orolan, Oct 17, 2003 12:41 PM [The Beginning]
      120028, Silverthorne, Oct 17, 2003 06:56 PM [Orolan's Story - Whats wrong with the reg...]
            120045, dp1, Oct 18, 2003 03:17 AM [Do You Have A Chip on Your Shoulder?]
                  120047, myoung, Oct 18, 2003 03:56 AM [this is a very rare instance]
                        120121, orolan, Oct 19, 2003 08:19 PM
                              120146, myoung, Oct 20, 2003 02:19 AM [orolan]
                              120147, Rejected
                        120927, ccw5305, Nov 04, 2003 12:43 AM [I can see you know where I'm comeing ...]
                  120062, Silverthorne, Oct 18, 2003 09:40 AM [But it is personal]
      120030, orolan, Oct 17, 2003 10:04 PM [Part Two]
            120063, Silverthorne, Oct 18, 2003 09:45 AM [Sue them anyway]
                  120115, orolan, Oct 19, 2003 06:54 PM [False reporting]
      120031, orolan, Oct 17, 2003 10:14 PM [The Polygraph Test]
            120037, dp1, Oct 18, 2003 01:51 AM [Orolan's Lie]
                  120069, orolan, Oct 18, 2003 03:01 PM [Scam]
                        120076, dp1, Oct 18, 2003 06:19 PM [Polygraph]
                              120080, Silverthorne, Oct 18, 2003 09:52 PM [Its true]
                                    120099, dp1, Oct 19, 2003 12:27 PM [Silver's Reply]
                                          120118, orolan, Oct 19, 2003 07:59 PM [polygraphs]
                                                120150, dp1, Oct 20, 2003 03:26 AM [Orolan's Polygraph Reply]
                                                      120195, myoung, Oct 20, 2003 04:02 PM [Question for DP1]
                                                            120206, dp1, Oct 20, 2003 09:21 PM [MYoung]
                                                                  120240, myoung, Oct 21, 2003 03:45 AM [thanks dp1]
                                                                  121145, katie, Nov 06, 2003 05:55 PM [question]
                                                                        121188, dp1, Nov 07, 2003 01:58 AM [Standard Sex Of...]
                                                                              122092, katie, Nov 21, 2003 05:38 PM [NO!]
                                                                                    122098, orolan, Nov 21, 2003 09:01 PM [New th...]
                                                                                          122109, steve, Nov 21, 2003 11:34 PM [I agree]
                                                      120220, orolan, Oct 21, 2003 12:06 AM [Reply to DP1]
                                                            120232, dp1, Oct 21, 2003 01:05 AM [Poly]
                                                                  120265, orolan, Oct 21, 2003 04:50 PM [Dahmer]
                              120116, orolan, Oct 19, 2003 07:50 PM
                                    120160, dp1, Oct 20, 2003 04:47 AM [Reply to Orolan]
                                          120221, orolan, Oct 21, 2003 12:16 AM [Humor, and a question]
                                                120235, dp1, Oct 21, 2003 01:26 AM [Reply to Orolan]
                                                      120269, orolan, Oct 21, 2003 05:09 PM [Cases]
                                                            120313, dp1, Oct 22, 2003 10:24 AM [Early Term from Probation]
                                                                  120325, orolan, Oct 22, 2003 05:35 PM [Early term]
                              120117, orolan, Oct 19, 2003 07:50 PM
      120032, Rejected
      120036, dp1, Oct 18, 2003 01:39 AM [Courage to Reveal]
            120070, orolan, Oct 18, 2003 03:14 PM [Judgement]
                  120077, PVulcan, Oct 18, 2003 07:02 PM [Interesting Indeed]
                        120081, Silverthorne, Oct 18, 2003 09:58 PM [Reply to PVulcan]
                              120096, PVulcan, Oct 19, 2003 08:14 AM
                              120100, dp1, Oct 19, 2003 12:50 PM [Everyone's Innocent?]
                                    120110, Silverthorne, Oct 19, 2003 05:35 PM [Why Im whining]
                                          120129, orolan, Oct 19, 2003 11:38 PM
                                                120178, dp1, Oct 20, 2003 12:08 PM [Lack of Rehabilitation?]
                                                      120226, orolan, Oct 21, 2003 12:34 AM [Rehabilitation]
                                                            120229, dp1, Oct 21, 2003 12:55 AM [Supervision Fees]
                                                                  120266, orolan, Oct 21, 2003 04:53 PM [Fees]
                                                120329, DoTheCrimeDoTheTime, Oct 22, 2003 08:30 PM [ Safe, Secur...]
                                                      120333, orolan, Oct 22, 2003 09:06 PM [costs]
                                                            120343, Silverthorne, Oct 23, 2003 03:06 AM [What a rip-off]
                                                                  120361, orolan, Oct 23, 2003 09:42 PM [Therapist]
                                          120179, dp1, Oct 20, 2003 12:16 PM [Silver's Reply]
                                          120212, dp1, Oct 20, 2003 11:10 PM [Silver's Reply]
                                                120222, Silverthorne, Oct 21, 2003 12:23 AM [You answred them]
                                                      120236, orolan, Oct 21, 2003 01:36 AM
                                                120231, orolan, Oct 21, 2003 01:05 AM [My two cents]
                                          121153, katie, Nov 06, 2003 06:16 PM
                                    120120, orolan, Oct 19, 2003 08:15 PM [We haven't heard from]
                                    120126, simon, Oct 19, 2003 09:08 PM
                                          120153, dp1, Oct 20, 2003 04:22 AM [Does Simon Have A Sense of Humor?]
                                          120174, PVulcan, Oct 20, 2003 06:06 AM
                                                120207, dp1, Oct 20, 2003 09:43 PM [Great Point But the Real Poi...]
                        120084, myoung, Oct 19, 2003 03:31 AM [To Vulcan]
                              120097, PVulcan, Oct 19, 2003 08:17 AM
                        120119, orolan, Oct 19, 2003 08:03 PM [PVulcan]
                              120143, PVulcan, Oct 20, 2003 01:53 AM [interesting still]
                                    120217, orolan, Oct 20, 2003 11:50 PM
      120043, steve, Oct 18, 2003 02:51 AM [Age of consent?]
            120122, orolan, Oct 19, 2003 08:26 PM [AOC]
                  120258, steve, Oct 21, 2003 03:42 PM
                        120263, orolan, Oct 21, 2003 04:44 PM
                              120305, steve, Oct 22, 2003 03:49 AM
                                    120326, orolan, Oct 22, 2003 05:42 PM [Simple mistakes]
      120102, yaesu, Oct 19, 2003 03:10 PM [Thanks for the story [nt]]
      120135, marta, Oct 20, 2003 12:29 AM [My opinion]
      120176, lj, Oct 20, 2003 08:56 AM [Question on your therapy]
            120215, orolan, Oct 20, 2003 11:42 PM
                  120223, Silverthorne, Oct 21, 2003 12:25 AM [What happend here?]
                        120327, orolan, Oct 22, 2003 06:04 PM [Friend's problem]
      120253, HPierce, Oct 21, 2003 02:47 PM [Justice at it's worst]
            120328, orolan, Oct 22, 2003 06:23 PM [Right to speak frankly]
      120775, myoung, Oct 31, 2003 03:32 PM [I just don't get it]
            120795, orolan, Oct 31, 2003 07:38 PM
                  120826, lj, Nov 01, 2003 01:51 AM [Question?]
                        120842, orolan, Nov 01, 2003 03:11 PM
                              120897, dp1, Nov 03, 2003 05:21 AM [Get A Modification for Contact]
                                    120920, orolan, Nov 04, 2003 12:03 AM [Mind Reader]
                                          120928, dp1, Nov 04, 2003 12:49 AM [Contact With Orolan]
                                          123257, dp1, Dec 17, 2003 06:04 PM [Status Update]
                                                123270, orolan, Dec 17, 2003 09:42 PM [Looong update]
                                                      123272, dp1, Dec 17, 2003 11:02 PM [Out of State VOP]
                                                            123277, orolan, Dec 18, 2003 12:40 AM
                                                                  123279, dp1, Dec 18, 2003 01:08 AM [Orolan]
                                                                        123311, orolan, Dec 18, 2003 08:36 PM
                                                                              123341, dp1, Dec 19, 2003 05:29 AM [Orolan]
                              120902, lj, Nov 03, 2003 05:45 AM [Your paradigm of society]
                                    120921, orolan, Nov 04, 2003 12:11 AM
                                          120952, lj, Nov 04, 2003 09:37 AM [I can relate!]
                                                120956, dp1, Nov 04, 2003 02:02 PM [New Board Post of the Year A...]
                                                      120969, lj, Nov 04, 2003 07:05 PM [Clarifying....]
                                                120964, Silverthorne, Nov 04, 2003 05:26 PM
                                                      120970, orolan, Nov 04, 2003 09:09 PM
                                                            120972, steve, Nov 04, 2003 09:23 PM [Post of the year]
                                                            120974, lj, Nov 04, 2003 09:38 PM
      121202, poetsdreamscape, Nov 07, 2003 06:23 AM [what a story]
            121230, orolan, Nov 07, 2003 07:40 PM
                  121346, poetsdreamscape, Nov 09, 2003 05:20 AM
                        121354, orolan, Nov 09, 2003 02:57 PM
                              121427, Silverthorne, Nov 11, 2003 06:02 PM
                                    121435, orolan, Nov 11, 2003 07:02 PM

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Forum: GeneralThread (Discussion): Orolan's Story

Message 120212 (In Reply to Message 120110)Silver's Reply

Message 120110Why Im whining

Thread

Forum: General

Thread (Discussion): Orolan's Story

Message 120212 (In Reply to Message 120110)
Silver's Reply

Message 120110
Why Im whining