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Forum: General
Thread (Discussion): P2P's are child porn central - oloran and H. Pierce
Message 120013
Posted by simon
on Oct 17, 2003 03:49 AM | Also by simon
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: 30 - 39,
State: Oregon,
Country: United States |
http://dc.internet.com/news/article.php/3092661
October 16, 2003
Hatch: P2Ps Are Child Porno Central
In a twisted turn of unintended consequences, the enormous success of the Internet as a distribution vehicle for pornography has created competitive pressures among smut purveyors to provide more depictions than ever of children engaging in violent and deviate sexual conduct.
John G. Malcolm, deputy assistant attorney general in the Criminal Division of the Justice Department, told the Senate Judiciary Committee Wednesday afternoon that the "proliferation of this material and the desire by pornographers to differentiate themselves in a highly-competitive market have prompted pornographers to produce ever-more offensive materials."
Malcolm said that in addition to child pornography, depictions "glorifying" bestiality, scatology and rape are "readily available" and "aggressively marketed" on the Internet.
"Because the Internet has popularized the trade in child pornography, there has been a surge in demand and a corresponding surge in production of child pornography," Malcolm said.
Malcolm cited a recent survey by the National Society of the Prevention of Cruelty of Children stating that approximately 20,000 images of child pornography are posted to the Internet every week. He added that the study indicates that about half of new images appearing on the Internet depict children between the ages of 9-12 years-of-age and the rest are younger.
"We must never forget that each image represents the rape of a child. Each image is a tragedy and a gruesome memorial of trauma, abuse, powerlessness and humiliation that will be with that child for the rest of his or her life."
While Wednesday's witnesses focused on Web sites featuring Internet child pornography, Judiciary Committee Chairman Orrin Hatch singled out peer-to-peer (P2P) networks as the most pernicious purveyors of online child pornography.
"I am currently considering legislative solutions to the many risks inherent in the use of peer-to-peer networks. Almost half of the people who use these networks are minors," Hatch said. "Recent studies have shown that millions and millions of pornographic files are available for downloading on these networks at any given time."
While P2P networks have come under criticism from Congress and the recording industry for music copyright violations, Hatch said the distribution of child pornography through file sharing deserves immediate attention.
"This is simply unacceptable. Many parents -- possibly the majority of them -- are unaware of this problem," Hatch said. "Even more disturbing is that searches on these networks using search terms that a child would be expected to use, such as Harry Potter or Pokemon, turn up an enormous percentage -- over 50 percent in one study according to the General Accounting Office -- of pornographic materials including child pornography."
Malcolm dodged the P2P issue but agreed that "offensive material that used to be largely unavailable to average citizens and children" is now largely unavoidable.
"Far from being hidden in brown paper bags behind the counters of disreputable stores, offensive material is now readily available to anyone with an Internet connection within a matter of minutes with a few clicks of a computer mouse, accessed by unsuspecting children and by adults who had no intention to seek such material and no desire to view it," Malcolm said.
The decentralized nature of P2P networks, which allow users to download and directly share electronic files independent of a central server, has raised concerns among lawmakers and law enforcement officials that child pornography is spreading through the networks at an alarming rate. A number of reports have linked child pornography with pedophiles.
Since Napster, the first widely popular P2P program, was shut down by court order, newer file-sharing programs like Kazaa, Grokster and BearShare have all surged in popularity and have become one of the most popular applications on the Internet, particularly among children and young adults.
Unlike Napster, which allowed only the sharing of music files, the newer P2P networks allow the sharing of digital images.
The March GAO report cited by Hatch conducted a Kazaa search for image files using 12 keywords known to be associated with child pornography on the Internet. Of 1,286 items identified in the search, approximately 42 percent were associated with child pornographic images. The remaining items included 34 percent that were classified as adult pornography and 24 percent as non-pornographic.
In another Kazaa search, the U.S. Customs CyberSmuggling Center used three keywords to search for and download child pornography image files. The search identified 341 image files, of which approximately 44 percent were classified as child pornography and 29 percent as adult pornography.
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Message 120019 (In Reply to Message 120013)
Media hype
Posted by orolan
on Oct 17, 2003 04:19 PM | Also by orolan
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: 30 - 39,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
"approximately 20,000 images of child pornography are posted to the Internet every week"
20K NEW images each week, or the same 20K every week?
"Orrin Hatch singled out peer-to-peer (P2P) networks as the most pernicious purveyors of online child pornography."
Let's see, Kazaa is the most pernicious of the pernicious. But US Customs and the GAO managed to find a grand total of 690 images, probably with several of them appearing in both searches. So where are the other 19,310 images?
"We must never forget that each image represents the rape of a child"
I don't buy this, either. 20K photographs of the physical rape of a child? Every week? Nope. I bet 95% of what they call pornography is simply nudity, with no depictions of sex acts between minors and adults.
IMHO
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Message 120020 (In Reply to Message 120013)
Not true
Posted by HPierce
on Oct 17, 2003 04:28 PM | Also by HPierce
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: 30 - 39,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
Mr. Hatch is riding the media, cp bandwagon for all it's worth. I've spent quite a bit of time as has my son and wife on various P2P networks. They all log IP addys. If there is CP on these services it is only because lea allows it.
I just came from Kaza-lite and searched with various search criteria that would net large amounts of porn. Is there lots of porn there??? There is as much porn as there are other topics. Is there CP? A lot of them say they are (teasers), but they are really 18+ yo girls.
No there isn't a lot of CP on P2P networks. They are even a thing of the past for IRC and usenet (of recent). The only volume of CP being passed nowdays are in 'trading groups' tightly controlled by PGP or by one-off naive people who will be picked up before they get their next picture.
Only a naive person or moron would post CP on P2P networks.
The only thing Hatch said that was accurate is that parents need to monitor their childrens habits on the Internet. We don't need more rules and laws.. just responsible parents to take an hour of their time from whatever sex-filled reality show they watch to supervise/educate their kids online.
H. Pierce (proud pedosexual)
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Message 120024 (In Reply to Message 120020)
crux of the matter
Posted by orolan
on Oct 17, 2003 05:51 PM | Also by orolan
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: 30 - 39,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
"just responsible parents to take an hour of their time from whatever sex-filled reality show they watch to supervise/educate their kids online"
Yes. the 100% most-effective method to prevent children from viewing pornography on the Net.
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Message 120034 (In Reply to Message 120019)
Good observation
Posted by HPierce
on Oct 18, 2003 12:42 AM | Also by HPierce
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: 30 - 39,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
orolon says:
>>>
20K NEW images each week, or the same 20K every week?
>>>
Assuming the number has any validity (which I seriously doubt) it would have to be a mix. Again if they know where 20K new pics are being posted each week, why haven't they stopped the flow. Just media hype!!!
Orolon says:
>>>
"We must never forget that each image represents the rape of a child"
I don't buy this, either. 20K photographs of the physical rape of a child? Every week? Nope. I bet 95% of what they call pornography is simply nudity, with no depictions of sex acts between minors and adults.
>>>
Very good.. I really hate it when moralists and legislator automatically equate nudity of children as rape/sexploitation or victims. Most aren't. It is a different story with child porn. There it is possible (although not even always the case) that the photos weren't consensual.
H. Pierce (proud pedosexual)
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Message 120094 (In Reply to Message 120020)
to H. Pierce
Posted by myoung
on Oct 19, 2003 06:16 AM | Also by myoung
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Pennsylvania,
Country: United States |
My 15 year old downloaded Kaza to her computer. I am always present and have parental controls set. My computer is networked to hers so she can use my printer and I can keep an eye on where she goes, etc. Not long after she downloaded Kaza, I found a great deal of spyware, netshares (exe files). I then started receiving pornographic info and popups. My computer does not have parental controls so these things got through to my computer and not hers. Imagine my 12 year old waiting for Nickelodeon to download while all this filth pops up as I watch him on the computer (very awkward to say the least). I have certainly talked with my kids about sex but them seeing some young girl with a penis in her mouth is not something he needs to see at his age! Needless to say, I purchased the proper software to avoid those issues but the point is, Kaza downloads in the "backdoor" lots of crap you don't need kids seeing. They are currently being accused of child exploitation. They know they can entice a certain age range to their website so they use it to solicit certain types of info to them. It really is quite sick. I can also argue about this garbage that parents should take the time to be present while their kids are surfing. Not only do these unsolicited pop ups come up without authorization, but the spyware that is downloaded allows for certain string names to get through without your control. I have to worry about my kids going to other people's homes who's parents are not as attentive as I may be. Not only that, a visit to the public library can allow for kids to access these sites. A government official in my state was nabbed downloading child porn onto a disc at the public library so it couldn't be traced to his personal computer. Someone saw him otherwise he would never have been found out.....it's just plain disgusting! These are the same people I am lobbying to in order to change Megan's Law......a contradiction in terms....sad but true
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Message 120109 (In Reply to Message 120094)
Kaza is well known for spyware
Posted by HPierce
on Oct 19, 2003 05:33 PM | Also by HPierce
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
It is well established that Kaza contains spyware. It is for that reason that we used Kaza-lite instead. It doesn't.
I'm glad you take an active part in your child's online time. If more parents were like you we wouldn't need half the idiotic laws we have out there.
H. Pierce (proud pedosexual)
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Message 120112 (In Reply to Message 120094)
Kazaa
Posted by orolan
on Oct 19, 2003 05:55 PM | Also by orolan
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
Considering that virtually everything on Kazaa is illegal to download due to copyright law and license agreements, why do you even use it? Or allow your children to?
If you're going to jump into the cesspool, expect to get something smelly on you.
What your children see at other people's homes will have to be dealt with as you already have. Through education. When your son sees that young girl with a penis in her mouth, what do you say? Nothing? Reach over red-faced and close the window? Or do you say "that's disgusting" and then close the window?
When he answers back with "not really", THEN you have to worry.
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Message 120123 (In Reply to Message 120094)
remove kazza
Posted by simon
on Oct 19, 2003 08:47 PM | Also by simon
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Oregon,
Country: United States |
Focusing on the initial subject of your post...
Remove Kazza. Are you and our child using it to download legitimate (read: legal) files...or mp3's?? Setting aside legalities, you're right that Kazza loads all sorts of nefarious software onto your CP. Knowing that why would you load it and thereby expose your child to that? Remove Kazza and clean up your computer.
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Message 120148 (In Reply to Message 120112)
kaza
Posted by myoung
on Oct 20, 2003 02:40 AM | Also by myoung
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Pennsylvania,
Country: United States |
I didn't know much about it until I went to a parent help page for those of us dealing with assaults on our children. I found an article there and was very upset. Kind of felt like I got duped. I have always considered myself well educated and that one got right by me. I am also very big on doing loads of research on topics. I am a research chemist by training so it is just in my nature to always search and ask questions. As for my son, we have had the talks about all of that....to HIS embarassment. I am very open. I don't have any problem calling it what it is. He was a bit shy about it. Yeah, he does think those girls are pretty skanky!!! I had to laugh. He asked me if they were hookers. I just told him how it was and he said he couldn't respect a girl who would do such a thing. I had to stop him right there. I did tell him that when two people love each other, trust each other and agree to those types of things together....it is fine. We talked about respecting yourself and some reasons people do those kind of things (exploit themselves on the internet). I teach my children tolerance because everyone has a story and sometimes what they do for money and not even for money seemed to be justified in their mind at the time no matter how wrong it was. That is why we have that fabulous feeling known as regret (rue, guilt, shame, whatever you want to call it) I also teach them that every household has it's dysfunctions no matter how it looks from the outside and children respond to them in different ways. Some act out, some turn inward, some hit the books and over achieve, etc. He has begun to privately analyze people's behavior somewhat and has a better sense of tolerance than many adults I know. I started talking to my kids about sex when they were about ten or eleven. There was a series in the news, at the time, about some kids (ten and eleven) who were caught in the bathroom at school having sex. I thought I'd better tell them the truth before it got all distorted for them. I have told them many times that when two people truly trust, respect, and care about each other what they consent to in the privacy of their own bedroom is okay as long as it is okay with each other. I always question whether I am telling them too much but they seem to be very responsible about it. I have my fingers crossed. I am only a parent. Flawed in every way!!
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Message 120151 (In Reply to Message 120123)
simon
Posted by myoung
on Oct 20, 2003 03:37 AM | Also by myoung
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Pennsylvania,
Country: United States |
My daughter told me it was a great way to get snipets of music. That was what someone at school told her. I just sent a reply to o and told him I felt duped because I hadn't done my homework about it right away. I had no idea at first. I felt like an idiot. I bought a spyware removal program and Norton's internet security software. We put windows 2000 on her cp which is networked to mine (she had 98). I scan for spyware every three days or so and norton alerts you when someone is trying to log on to your pc and blocks downloads with the exception of your approvals such as updates for quicken or symantec, etc.. I cleaned all the free porn garbage off and took all the execution files out that pertained to the casino junk which embedded a lot of porn stuff. They download hot keys in remote folders (just like a virus) you would never be able to access unless you were looking for them so that is what I did. I removed some hot keys manually and then let the spyhunter do the rest. Just think of all those kids out there who have cp illiterate parents! Very scary thought. My daughter was the only one using Kaza and she was not downloading MP3's. It was like partial songs. There was never a full version of the song. I wised up and quick. She's only been on the computer for about one school year now. She's in 10th grade so I think we're good to go at this point. She now has more security on her computer than fort knox;)
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Message 120285 (In Reply to Message 120112)
Not quite
Posted by HPierce
on Oct 22, 2003 12:13 AM | Also by HPierce
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
orolan says:
>>>
Considering that virtually everything on Kazaa is illegal to download due to copyright law and license agreements, why do you even use it? Or allow your children to?
If you're going to jump into the cesspool, expect to get something smelly on you.
>>>
I guess the point of legality is sometimes a state of mind. I find nothing wrong with downloading a picture that may or maynot have been copyrighted just like I don't have a problem if my child burns a CD of music off of cable TV for his own consumption. Nearly every TV program is copyrighted but yet VCR's are sold for you to copy them. Same with CDs and cassettes. Of course people shouldn't be making copies to sell but few people think anything about someone dubbing a CD or movie for their friend or girlfriend. But people get bent out of shape when you share it electronically. In neither case is someone trying to make money off the copied media but In both cases the copy denies the artist/recording company revenue.
When you get right down to it a lot of what we post here violates copyright laws. I'm sure some of the cut and paste stories that get posted here are at times (if not most times) in violation of copyright laws. But we all look past that don't we because the intent wasn't to profit from the copy but to share.
orolan says:
>>>
When your son sees that young girl with a penis in her mouth, what do you say? Nothing? Reach over red-faced and close the window? Or do you say "that's disgusting" and then close the window?
When he answers back with "not really", THEN you have to worry.
>>>
Number one I wouldn't try to shock him by saying it's disgusting. I would ask him why he was looking at that type of picture (if he was underage). If the picture was child porn, I would want to know if he was looking at it for 'shock value' or because he was into that type of erotica. Only if he was into that type of erotica would I feel I had a reason to worry.
H. Pierce (proud pedosexual)
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Message 120288 (In Reply to Message 120148)
telling too much
Posted by orolan
on Oct 22, 2003 12:52 AM | Also by orolan
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
"I always question whether I am telling them too much"
I was accused of the same thing when I first came to this board. But as far as I'm concerned, you can't tell them too much. What you don't tell them, somebody else will. And what they are told might not be right.
Sounds like you do a great job with your kids.
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Message 120292 (In Reply to Message 120285)
Kazaa
Posted by orolan
on Oct 22, 2003 12:56 AM | Also by orolan
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
HP,
I agree with you. The point I was making was that if most of the activity is "illegal" and we know it, we have no reason or right to become outraged if some "illegal" porn manages to find its way on our computer from that same source.
I can't say much, because I have close to 6 gigs of MP3's. But they didn't come from Kazaa, they came from newsgroups.
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Message 120295 (In Reply to Message 120151)
Posted by simon
on Oct 22, 2003 01:14 AM | Also by simon
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Oregon,
Country: United States |
I posted somewhere on here tht this months PC World issue has a good article about PC security and steps a parent can take to protect their children online. If you're in the bookstore sometime this month you might want to buy it. I read the article...it's fairly good.
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Message 120302 (In Reply to Message 120288)
oloran and H. Pierce
Posted by myoung
on Oct 22, 2003 03:12 AM | Also by myoung
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Pennsylvania,
Country: United States |
Yeah, I am very up front with my kids and I do get some criticism but I really don't care because they are so level headed and are showing clear signs of taking responsibility for themselves and their actions. I appreciate your complement. I wish my mother felt the same. As open minded as she claims to be, she gives me the third degree about my frank discussions with them when they have questions. No phony fairy tales here!! My son has never seen any of those pics on the internet (that I am aware of) and he is never allowed on by himself so that was intended to be more hypothetical. If he were to see it I think he'd be very embarassed that I was there when he saw it. He's such a sensitive kid but he plays football like a wildman. He already knows I would probably break into the whole discussion about how when people are married and/or love and respect one another, anything they agree to consent to isn't dirty bad blah, blah, blah. He's heard it already so I can see the eye roll and hear the sigh of utter boredom:)
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Thread
120013, simon, Oct 17, 2003 03:49 AM
120019, orolan, Oct 17, 2003 04:19 PM [Media hype]
120034, HPierce, Oct 18, 2003 12:42 AM [Good observation]
120020, HPierce, Oct 17, 2003 04:28 PM [Not true]
120024, orolan, Oct 17, 2003 05:51 PM [crux of the matter]
120094, myoung, Oct 19, 2003 06:16 AM [to H. Pierce]
120109, HPierce, Oct 19, 2003 05:33 PM [Kaza is well known for spyware]
120112, orolan, Oct 19, 2003 05:55 PM [Kazaa]
120148, myoung, Oct 20, 2003 02:40 AM [kaza]
120288, orolan, Oct 22, 2003 12:52 AM [telling too much]
120302, myoung, Oct 22, 2003 03:12 AM [oloran and H. Pierce]
120285, HPierce, Oct 22, 2003 12:13 AM [Not quite]
120292, orolan, Oct 22, 2003 12:56 AM [Kazaa]
120123, simon, Oct 19, 2003 08:47 PM [remove kazza]
120151, myoung, Oct 20, 2003 03:37 AM [simon]
120295, simon, Oct 22, 2003 01:14 AM
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