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Forum: General
Thread (Discussion): Teen guilty in daycare rape - prime example(sorry it's kinda long)
Message 120012
Posted by simon
on Oct 17, 2003 03:48 AM | Also by simon
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: 30 - 39,
State: Oregon,
Country: United States |
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/144151_ymca16.html
Thursday, October 16, 2003
Teen enters guilty plea in day care rape case
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER STAFF
A 15-year-old boy pleaded guilty to rape and molestation charges stemming from two incidents at the West Seattle YMCA day care during the summer.
The boy pleaded guilty Tuesday to one count of rape of a child in the first degree and one count of child molestation in the first degree. The counts were for separate victims, one of whom was a 4-year-old boy.
The 4-year-old told his mother of the incident Aug. 6, one month after the 15-year-old started working at the program. The city of Seattle's Summer Youth Employment Program had placed him there.
He could face 15 to 36 weeks in juvenile detention for each count at his sentencing hearing Nov. 25 in juvenile court. Detention time for the counts would run consecutively.
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Message 120029 (In Reply to Message 120012)
Pathetic sentencing guidelines
Posted by Silverthorne
on Oct 17, 2003 06:59 PM | Also by Silverthorne
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Arizona,
Country: United States |
"He could face 15 to 36 weeks in juvenile detention for each count at his sentencing hearing Nov. 25 in juvenile court. Detention time for the counts would run consecutively."
Im not one for "life sentences" on the first offense (most of the time) but I do find a 15-36 week sentence a little light for first degree rape of a child.
If this kid did this at 15 years old its clear he was thinking about it for a long time. I remember myself liking boys starting at age 12-13 or so. Its sad our society and the christian right is so up in arms about sexual education in our schools we don't have programs (like DARE for drugs) to teach our kids about sexual issues.
This kid needs long-term intensive therapy in a structured secure enviornment.
Herein lies a big problem with juvenile crime. Once he turns 18 in most states the record is sealed. I assume he'll be on the registry there but will that carry over past 18?
A sad case with failures all the way around.
Silverthorne
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Message 120040 (In Reply to Message 120012)
I absolutely agree Silverthorne
Posted by myoung
on Oct 18, 2003 02:35 AM | Also by myoung
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Pennsylvania,
Country: United States |
What kind of a sentence is THAT? My family is going through a similar circumstance due to the molestation of our two year old daughter. The DA told us he will be asking for a probationary period and counseling! This child still tries to make contact with us when we are outside in our yard and talks to our eldest children on the bus ride to school (he is a neighbor). He has no sense of shame nor remorse. I think we are far too lenient with our juvenile offenders. Shouldn't we try to make the impression when they are young? A slap on the patties isn't going to do it!
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Message 120044 (In Reply to Message 120029)
Juvenile Detention?
Posted by dp1
on Oct 18, 2003 02:54 AM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
Juvenile Detention is a joke! Now he could be around more kids....gee....just what he needs! I must be missing something here. What on earth do people think causes these types of crimes anyway?
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Message 120065 (In Reply to Message 120012)
Wait how can this be???
Posted by HPierce
on Oct 18, 2003 10:40 AM | Also by HPierce
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
I don't take his crime lightly. However, on the other hand I think many of you are always screaming about the poor little victims under 18 that are incapable of thinking about sex unless some big bad pedophile turns them on to sex.
In reality children are as sexual or more sexual than adults. Seems stupid to give a stiff penalty to a kid who you all say are is not mature enough, smart enough or capable of knowing the consequences of his actions. What a bunch of hypocrites.
H. Pierce (proud pedosexual)
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Message 120085 (In Reply to Message 120065)
H. Pierce
Posted by myoung
on Oct 19, 2003 03:56 AM | Also by myoung
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Pennsylvania,
Country: United States |
What exactly is a proud pedosexual anyway? You cannot possibly tell me that a child who has no concept of the abstract can fully understand the magnitude and consequence of consenting to sex with an adult. Have you been formally educated in childhood development? By some of your comments, I am assuming...no. Children see the world in the most amazing way. They have a level of trust simply born to them that we all adjust due to our experiences with the outside world. They see things with simplicity and an innocence unmatched by any other stage in life.. They are not really as sexual as you seem to think.....at least not until they have some exposure. I have raised three children. Two female and one male. They are very different, yes, I agree. But, they were not very interested in sex until someone introduced them to it. As children, it is one thing to be interested in your own body parts but it is quite another for someone to corrupt that purity by forcing new experiences upon them where they do not belong. A child cannot give fully informed consent, it just isn't possible. Their minds are simply not developed enough to comprehend that responsibiIity. I am very open minded about any subject bur my instinct as a human being tells me that this one is so wrong it does not have a place within the boundaries of my ethics. I do understand, fully, the process of addiction and I do understand that compulsion can be a demanding strain on one's psyche. What makes you believe that you have the ability to identify whether a child truly is capable of knowing what they are getting themselves into when they are placed in a precarious adult situation? What allows them to continue going along with an adult?......fear and shame is my guess. Fear , guilt and shame are three of the most powerful emotions that we experience. They are what make the addict remain an addict and a child do what instinct tells them is wrong under duress. Why do you think most if not all children cry out during an attack and beg the person to "STOP". They know it isn't what they want but they weren't aware of what they were getting into in the first place. My feeling is that those who believe it is their right to have sex with children are unable to see the fear and shame in their eyes. They see and believe what they want to see. It is like the rapist (of an adult woman) in a blind rage who maintains that the woman wanted him even though she was crying and fighting the entire attack. Take off the rose tinted glasses! They have no sense of the burden they are inflicting at the time.
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Message 120104 (In Reply to Message 120085)
responsibility
Posted by orolan
on Oct 19, 2003 04:07 PM | Also by orolan
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
myoung,
Your entire post supports HP's position. How can this boy be held "responsible" for his actions when you yourself say that he is an innocent child who has no idea of what sex is until an adult forces it on him?
I believe you said "Their minds are simply not developed enough to comprehend that responsibiIity". Pretty much says it all.
I don't condone the boy's conduct at all. But if an adult initiated contact with him, you would jump to the other side of the fence and call him an innocent victim.
He can't be both, but using age as a determinant does exactly that.
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Message 120149 (In Reply to Message 120104)
orolan
Posted by myoung
on Oct 20, 2003 02:53 AM | Also by myoung
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Pennsylvania,
Country: United States |
I believe I said MY child is innocent. She is only two. The child who molested her is a teenager. He has had sex ed in school and definitely knows better than to touch a child well over a decade younger than himself. I know he has been educated about sex because he is older than my son and he had sex ed last year (he's 12). My frustration is that this child (teen) displays all of the traits of an abused child. I found out, after the fact, that he is still wetting his bed and much worse, he is regressive in his behavior, he has tried to form relationships with girls his own age but becomes verbally abusive with them. I am not going to get all technical about this.....he is a child in my eyes and he needs help. He was definitely aware that what he did was wrong but shows no remorse. I think there is definitely a turning point in every child's life where they know the difference between acceptable age and appropriate touching. He breached those boundaries but my suspicion is that he has been sexually abused and cannot form healthy relationships with girls his age which might satisfy some of that frustration and curiosity. He just looked very blank and empty as he spoke about what he did. I am grieving for him as well as my own child. There has never been anything more painful for me to endure. If my suspicions are correct and he is being abused, the police sent hm back into his parents custody until the hearing. That is very upsetting because we don't know what they are like to him.
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Message 120177 (In Reply to Message 120104)
Victim or Offender ?
Posted by Rachel
on Oct 20, 2003 11:49 AM | Also by Rachel
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: Australia |
It's also a fair possibility that the teenage boy was himself a victim of sexual abuse. Isn't it often the case with young offenders ?
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Message 120180 (In Reply to Message 120177)
rachel
Posted by myoung
on Oct 20, 2003 01:30 PM | Also by myoung
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Pennsylvania,
Country: United States |
very possible. I have posted some stuff about my current situation and it is coming to light slowly but surely that the teenager who molested my daughter is himself a victim. Absolutely!! I agree with that. There is a lot of case studies that suggest a child molester will take their first victim on or about the age of 12-14. Also they will choose a victim in the age range at which their abuse began. Again, very sad:(
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Message 120204 (In Reply to Message 120149)
how so?
Posted by orolan
on Oct 20, 2003 08:23 PM | Also by orolan
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
"I believe I said MY child is innocent."
No. You didn't. In the entire post I replied to, this is the only mention you made of your child:
"I have raised three children. Two female and one male. They are very different, yes, I agree."
Your entire post consisted of "general" comments that any common person would see as pertaining to "all children", not a specific 2 year-old as you claim. If that is what you "meant", that's fine. But that's not how I read it, hence my response.
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Message 120214 (In Reply to Message 120065)
What a bunch of hypocrites
Posted by dp1
on Oct 20, 2003 11:40 PM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
Excellent point HP. That's why the sentencing guidelines are different for children and adults. In Florida we also have youthful offender laws which apply to kids that are charged as adults but limits the prison time to only 6 years even for very serious offenses. Do you know if other states have similar limitations for our young offenders?
DP1
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Message 120233 (In Reply to Message 120204)
orolan
Posted by myoung
on Oct 21, 2003 01:19 AM | Also by myoung
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Pennsylvania,
Country: United States |
Sorry, my thoughts are usually ahead of my fingers. I assume I have already filled someone in when I actually haven't. Yes, my daughter is two and that is the one who was molested. My other two are 12 and 15 going on 30! You know how it goes:) When I think about children being molested I think about a very distinct age group. I would see the cut off around 15-16 years of age and they really aren't "children" so much as they are becoming young adults. They have wider perspective, better grasp of abstract concepts, a limited understanding of their bodies and sex, etc. Like you, I would consider that age group minors but not really children. Like you, I was once 15-16 so I understand fully where gray areas come into play with regard to consent and sex offenses. When I speak about crimes against children that absolutely disturb me I am usually speaking of innocent children of the single digit ages and slightly beyond. I look at teens very differently. Although any aggressive, violent crime is abhorent in my opinion, I think in teen cases, the lines can become blurred when it comes to differences in age, consensual sex, etc. I have seen lots of young girls who look 20 but they are only 16 and their minds are even less! When I see an offender on a registry who, at the time of his conviction, was 19 years old, I do stop and ask myself if maybe he was a victim of circumstance when his MO is girls "18 and under". It could've been a girl who was 17 and her parents went nuts when they found out she was having sex. I don't often jump the gun and make all kinds of assumptions because I know it can happen and does. I konw it is a responsible person who will really get to know the girl (likely discovering that she is a minor) but there are cases where that is a very difficult thing to do and it should not be totally his fault. I am a female..... I know the game and have played it myself in my youth. I just didn't realize the danger I could have put the other person in. Young and ignorant, I guess but that is no excuse.
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Message 120249 (In Reply to Message 120214)
Read the point wrong.
Posted by marta
on Oct 21, 2003 02:07 PM | Also by marta
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
Excellent point HP. That's why the sentencing guidelines are different for children and adults.
Except that H.P. wasn't arguing that kids are immature and perceive sex differently. His argument is that kids and adults think about sex in exactly the same way, to the extent that adults should be able to have sex with children, as long as they're loving about it.
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Message 120254 (In Reply to Message 120249)
Point Well Taken
Posted by dp1
on Oct 21, 2003 02:50 PM | Also by dp1
| Gender: Female,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Florida,
Country: United States |
Absolutely Marta. I was just trying to point out that the only possible rational argument HP could possibly have had would be that the criminal justice system might be hypocritical by treating minors unjustly harsh since they are so innocent. As I pointed out, the system with it's laws has already taken that into consideration. Thanks for your insightful post.
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Message 120262 (In Reply to Message 120233)
children versus minors
Posted by orolan
on Oct 21, 2003 04:27 PM | Also by orolan
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: N/A,
Country: United States |
I agree. If you've seen my views on the AOC and teen sex, you know that I see a need for a sharp demarcation between what a "child" is and what a "minor" is. Laws need to move away from the word "minor" and towards the word "child", with a distinct definition of what a "child" is. Definitely single-digit ages, definitely pre-pubescent, probably 14 and under but maybe 12 and under, etc.
I just don't see how we as a society can tell that 15 year-old that he can't make a mature informed decision about sex because of his age, then turn around and say he knew exactly what he was doing and will be held responsible when he does commit an act. We can't have both. And we can't condone molesting two year-olds. Seems that leaves us only one choice, doesn't it?
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Message 120267 (In Reply to Message 120262)
Posted by steve
on Oct 21, 2003 04:55 PM | Also by steve
| Gender: Male,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Virginia,
Country: United States |
> I just don't see how we as a society can tell that 15 year-old that he can't make
> a mature informed decision about sex because of his age, then turn around
> and say he knew exactly what he was doing and will be held responsible
> when he does commit an act.
I disagree. If a person is not old enough to take advantage of rights that the government (or society) grants to someone older, that doesn't mean they don't understand that something's wrong and that there are consequences.
If you consider age-based laws for activities such as driving, sex, alcohol consumption and voting I'm sure most people have known people below the minimum age who could have responsibly partaken in the activities and people above the minimum age who couldn't. By and large age-based laws are enacted because it's difficult to impossible to realistically implement restrictions based on other criteria. It would be nice if there were other criteria that would be better, but I don't think there are.
And I don't want to remove culpability across the board for those under the minimum age. What effect would that have?
Please elaborate on how you'd tackle this issue.
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Message 120275 (In Reply to Message 120262)
prime example(sorry it's kinda long)
Posted by myoung
on Oct 21, 2003 09:23 PM | Also by myoung
| Gender: N/A,
Age Bracket: N/A,
State: Pennsylvania,
Country: United States |
My daughter came home last week and told me that one of her friends just found out she is pregnant. My daughter is 15 and her friend was fifeen when she got prego but just turned 16 recently.. She also went on to answer some questions I had about culpability, education, responsibility, liability, etc. She and I talk often so she has a rather excellent grasp of consequence and how I feel about things, etc. She told me her friend said it was an oops but they did know what they were doing. The boy is the same age as they are so there isn't much legality to it with the exception of monetary support etc. Seems to me that the more I talk to my daughter about their peer groups and what they understand, they understand far more than people give them credit for at age 15 (I do remember myself at 15.....pretty scary some of the things I did with regard to dating because I didn't look my age)!! My point is, this girl is going to have the colossal responsibility of a child at the ripe old age of 15 and that is fine legally? But, if an eighteen year old had not known her age and got her pregnant, he'd be facing jail, registry, rape charges, etc. She knew what she was doing.....thank heaven the boy is her age! I absolutely do not condone forceful acts of any kind so I am considering this a cosensual act. Ahhh, but proving that is a whole other issue. I know not every 15 year old is at the same maturity level but they get educated about sex whether it be from their peers (heaven help them!!), parents, TV, books, or in school. In our state (PA), there are two sets of criterion for sex offender's victims. The two groups are broken down into 13 and under and 18 and under. I think it then covers those sex offenders who are not as preferential as some. Still, the 18 and under covers a very braod range or does it only cover 14-18? It isn't totally clear but I guess it was the best they could do. Again, when it is a forced act, I believe it's wrong either way. What are your feelings about a man well into his late 20's (27-28ish) and beyond knowingly sleeping with a girl he fully aware to be "under age"? I would hope that a man without some criminal brain malfunctiion would say, "Whoa there.....don't think so".....but what if they don't? Do you think it should be up to the elder because they are seen as the more mature of the two and can make a more responsible decision? If he doesn't, should he go to jail? These are gray areas but people do get sent away for them so I have strong feelings about their importance. On one hand, we need to protect our young adults but on the other hand, we have to protect adults from those instances when a girl lies, doesn't look her age, etc. What then? Do we really feel we should hold the adult responsible for not being an investigator and finding out everything there is to know about her. In reality, they have had sex long before he learns too much about her. What do you think? I think everyone on this forum has made clear that sex with single digit ages and slightly beyond is not okay but what about these gray areas? It is very tricky.
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Thread
120012, simon, Oct 17, 2003 03:48 AM
120029, Silverthorne, Oct 17, 2003 06:59 PM [Pathetic sentencing guidelines]
120044, dp1, Oct 18, 2003 02:54 AM [Juvenile Detention?]
120040, myoung, Oct 18, 2003 02:35 AM [I absolutely agree Silverthorne]
120065, HPierce, Oct 18, 2003 10:40 AM [Wait how can this be???]
120085, myoung, Oct 19, 2003 03:56 AM [H. Pierce]
120104, orolan, Oct 19, 2003 04:07 PM [responsibility]
120149, myoung, Oct 20, 2003 02:53 AM [orolan]
120204, orolan, Oct 20, 2003 08:23 PM [how so?]
120233, myoung, Oct 21, 2003 01:19 AM [orolan]
120262, orolan, Oct 21, 2003 04:27 PM [children versus minors]
120267, steve, Oct 21, 2003 04:55 PM
120275, myoung, Oct 21, 2003 09:23 PM [prime example(sorry it's ...]
120177, Rachel, Oct 20, 2003 11:49 AM [Victim or Offender ?]
120180, myoung, Oct 20, 2003 01:30 PM [rachel]
120181, Rejected
120214, dp1, Oct 20, 2003 11:40 PM [What a bunch of hypocrites]
120249, marta, Oct 21, 2003 02:07 PM [Read the point wrong.]
120254, dp1, Oct 21, 2003 02:50 PM [Point Well Taken]
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